Principle involved here or am I over reacting?

[ivansc]

OP: Were you playing "au black"?

I am assuming yes, so it all becomes a bit of a moot point.

Those of you not familiar with the French system, if you are getting correctly paid for a gig, it is supposed to be "declare" and taxes, plus the French equivalent of NHI etc paid.
There are a few venues in my area (Brittany) that will actually pay a non-declared band to play, but there are less and less. Usual system is for a "member of the audience" to pass a bucket round for contributions, which is the bands fee... Landlord provides booze, often food and sometimes a place to sleep if you are from out of town.

And YES most gigs have a "majoration" if there is a band playing that is getting paid.
My local venue just slaps a euro on the cost of your drink once the band has started playing.

Edited April 17, 2016 by ivansc

[leschirons]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1460889909' post='3029514']
OP: Were you playing "au black"?

I am assuming yes, so it all becomes a bit of a moot point.

Those of you not familiar with the French system, if you are getting correctly paid for a gig, it is supposed to be "declare" and taxes, plus the French equivalent of NHI etc paid.
There are a few venues in my area (Brittany) that will actually pay a non-declared band to play, but there are less and less. Usual system is for a "member of the audience" to pass a bucket round for contributions, which is the bands fee... Landlord provides booze, often food and sometimes a place to sleep if you are from out of town.

And YES most gigs have a "majoration" if there is a band playing that is getting paid.
My local venue just slaps a euro on the cost of your drink once the band has started playing.
[/quote]

The only "moot point" here is that I have already explained that I made an incorrect assumption which I have retracted.

Actually, we are a French registered charity as a Club de musique" This allows us to put on some paid concerts each year. We are also a French registered Anglo - French Entente Cordiale association which allows us to do more. We keep and submit accounts each year, claim our expenses for fuel / strings and any accomodation, provide a facture for the venues and if they require it, provide a set list for SACEM. So in answer to your question, no, we do not practise tax evasion.

Edited April 17, 2016 by leschirons

[discreet]

[quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1460916096' post='3029781']
...we do not practice tax evasion.
[/quote]

I don't practise it any more either, I've got it down pat. Har, har, har. *Gets coat and so on*

[TimR]

[quote name='luckydog' timestamp='1460829083' post='3029208']
Ah well there we differ, TimR. I think it's implicit in the word 'tip' in the mind of the tipper that tips go to those who provide the service. Well that's what's in my mind when I put my contri......and I do care, not sure what I'd think as a punter of passing a tip jar round for the landlord ! Probably fine if it is clear.........

LD
[/quote]

As the OP explains. It wasn't and never was a 'tip' jar. It was 'for the band'.

[blue]

I don't think your over reacting, sounds like he paid you from tips from the crowd.

Unless I have misread your post,it sounds like the owner got free live music.

Blue

Edited April 18, 2016 by blue

[blue]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1460772428' post='3028673']
Maybe he would have found it difficult to pay your fee without the collection? I doubt his profit from drinks would have covered it. It's certainly thoughtless at best and morally suspect at worst, but at least he's willing to put live acts on.

It's a bit iffy I suppose, but worse things happen at sea, or something. And it's a great gig for you, otherwise. Do you really want to give it up? What about your adoring fans? Are you going to deprive them of their entertainment on a point of principle?

One of those rare situations where I can see both sides of the argument.
[/quote]

I could never side with the owner on this one.

Remember the OP is 64, I'm 63, at our age we will not tolerate doing business like the OP described.That pub owner crossed the line.

Blue

Edited April 18, 2016 by blue

[blue]

We're lucky, we have an administrator that let's the owners know what our fee is and how we conduct business. Nobody, well on stage talent has any contact with the owners. The administrator collects our fee prior to performing. We all have our compensation in our pockets before we play one note.

We're in the States so it's a little different over here. Tips are a part if the business model for bar bands over here. We have a tip jar discreetly placed on our merch table. The tip money is usually an extra $20.00 in everyone's pocket.We wouldn't think of passing it around.

I have to tell you guys, I think the bar owners over here are more band friendly or fair to bands than what I have learned about your pub owners.

Guys tipping is big over here. We had a guy that has come to our shows and has tipped everyone in the band $100.00. He even tipped our sound guy $100.00. And it's happened at more than one gig. The man is a true supporter of live music, the guy is a Prince in my book.

I know tipping is looked at as sort of crude in the UK.

Blue

Edited April 18, 2016 by blue

[blue]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1460889909' post='3029514']
OP: Were you playing "au black"?

I am assuming yes, so it all becomes a bit of a moot point.

Those of you not familiar with the French system, if you are getting correctly paid for a gig, it is supposed to be "declare" and taxes, plus the French equivalent of NHI etc paid.
There are a few venues in my area (Brittany) that will actually pay a non-declared band to play, but there are less and less. Usual system is for a "member of the audience" to pass a bucket round for contributions, which is the bands fee... Landlord provides booze, often food and sometimes a place to sleep if you are from out of town.

And YES most gigs have a "majoration" if there is a band playing that is getting paid.
My local venue just slaps a euro on the cost of your drink once the band has started playing.
[/quote]

I do this for a living. I can't pay my mortgage with food and drink.

Blue

Edited April 18, 2016 by blue

[blue]

[quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1460851942' post='3029375']
Well,

In the true spirit of Bass chat, I must recant my earlier ravings and also wholeheartedly apologise to all who's time I've wasted in reading, and commenting on my original statement.

I've just got back from a wedding gig having obviously met with the band on arrival. I was met by the drummer and guitarist who at this point, were up for not playing there again. Our singer arrives and informs us all (including her own husband LOL) that collecting from the audience had always been the case and had been mentioned at the original booking a year ago. We had never seen a collection before as it was apparently usually done at the bar, when people settled their bar tabs and food bill for the night upon leaving. I guess we would normally be clearing away at this point. She didn't see this as anything worth mentioning at the time and so it was forgotten.

I'm not blaming her for my wrong assumption in any way and it was my fault that I didn't check what she'd slipped in my pocket at the time as I had a monitor in each hand. I only looked on the way home so all this would have been avoided had I checked whilst still there.

I hold my hands up 100% for jumping the gun. Apologies all round.

Just a quick edit to say that this was never about wanting more money, I had wrongly assumed that people had been misled.
[/quote]

I would never accept a gig knowing we were being paid from a pass around.

Blue

[JTUK]

All decent points, ..and since the OP has explained the reason for his post turned out to be a misunderstanding we are left
to discuss general gigging 'principles'... but the truth is there is no set way ..just experience which tells you
how to do it. OR, how YOU want to do it.

There are dodgy bar owners/venues, but then you don't have to play their game.
Pay to play is one...
Pass the hat is another,
Open MIc night.

Most these are fill the venue on an off night situations..

You should know how the guy books ..or make it your business to find out.
There are plenty of decent bookers as there are scum bags, you just have
to determine who you will work for..

So, yes, if you don't like the way someone runs their business...you can have
a principle on it, IMO.

[mcnach]

[quote name='SICbass' timestamp='1460790446' post='3028704']
Is it part of your agreement with the manager that this maximum fee has to come explicitly from his pocket? Maybe it's always a mix like this and, depending upon how much the crowd donates, the manager takes more or less of a loss for which he then has to make up the difference.
Or was last night a change as to how you've done it in the past?
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I feel that specifics like this do throw a completely different light on the matter.
[/quote]

That is a good point. And it would not be unreasonable. But the collection has to be presented as being collected in order to put live music in the bar, I think.

[blue]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1461010788' post='3030683']


That is a good point. And it would not be unreasonable. But the collection has to be presented as being collected in order to put live music in the bar, I think.
[/quote]

No being paid from a pass around. Were getting paid our fee by the owner or we don't do business with you.

Blue

Edited April 18, 2016 by blue

[TimR]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1461012195' post='3030702']


No being paid from a pass around. Were getting paid our fee by the owner or we don't do business with you.

Blue
[/quote]

They weren't being paid from the pass round. The owner was using the pass round to subsidise the amount he had to find from the takings.

Or looking at it another way - if the jar had more money in it than the agreed fee - what should happen to the extra money?

[luckydog]

I think a court might look at it that if a punter in good faith believes he is making a gift to the band by donating to the band's tip jar, then that gift belongs to the band? Who else could it belong to ?

LD

[gjones]

There's a venue in my city that declares proudly, on it's website, that all the entry money goes to the band. I know that isn't the case because he pays us far less than the ticket takings over the 3 hours that we are playing. It has a capacity of 140 people, they charge £5 entry and there is usually a queue trying to get in. The place is packed yet we get the same fee every time we play. He also expects us to pay for the sound engineer and the hire of the venue PA, out of our fee (he doesn't mention that on the bloody website).
The guy is a musician (well a drummer) himself, so you would think he would have a bit of sympathy for his fellow musicians; obviously not.

By the way...... I played a venue in Orkney, that put a bucket around, at the end of the night I took a quick look, and there was significantly more money in the bucket than we were actually being paid. The swines!!

Edited April 19, 2016 by gjones

[blue]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1461015918' post='3030761']


They weren't being paid from the pass round. The owner was using the pass round to subsidise the amount he had to find from the takings.

Or looking at it another way - if the jar had more money in it than the agreed fee - what should happen to the extra money?
[/quote]

Cool, I get it, but I'm still not sure I approve.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1461018928' post='3030789']
There's a venue in my city that declares proudly, on it's website, that all the entry money goes to the band. I know that isn't the case because he pays us far less than the ticket takings over the 3 hours that we are playing. It has a capacity of 140 people, they charge £5 entry and there is usually a queue trying to get in. The place is packed yet we get the same fee every time we play. He also expects us to pay for the sound engineer and the hire of the venue PA, out of our fee (he doesn't mention that on the bloody website).
The guy is a musician (well a drummer) himself, so you would think he would have a bit of sympathy for his fellow musicians; obviously not.

By the way...... I played a venue in Orkney, that put a bucket around, at the end of the night I took a quick look, and there was significantly more money in the bucket than we were actually being paid. The swines!!
[/quote]

All in all. I'd say, creepy.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='Maude' timestamp='1460832894' post='3029246']
I put some money in the bank last year but when I drew it out last week it wasn't my money, I put two fifty pence pieces in but they gave me a pound coin.

Same thing isn't it?
Landlord has a collection for the band and then gives the band their money
Might not be the same coins and notes but you got your money.

I can see how it might make you feel but it's up to the LL how he gets the money for your fee. Without any more information you have to just accept that he paid you your fee and everyone, including you had a great night.
Job done!

[/quote]

There's a bar in my neck if the woods that really books some good local blues rock bands. Older but very responsive and appreciative clientele. High end food.

They provide meals for the band members and pass around a hat.

We won't play there.

Blue

[gapiro]

[quote name='barneyg42' timestamp='1460793672' post='3028726']
I wonder if he has a brewery budget towards entertainment?
Brewery give him say £250, he does a pot and takes say £80 and literally pockets the change!! We've played a pub for the first time on a loss leader, ie take £50 less than our usual fee on the understanding that if we fill the pub we'll be on a better rate on further bookings. We duly filled the pub and in a the second half noticed a jug going round. Of course it was just to go towards our fee and not a bonus, the landlady said that she didn't get enough budget or takings to cover the bands. We were not happy and said that she might as well have charged at the door and of course she didn't reveal how much was collected but we could see notes in the glass! We didn't go back, we felt we couldn't justify our friends and fans dropping a few quid extra when they are being deceived that it is going to us.
Dodgy practice IMHO!!
[/quote]
Actually what we find round these parts is that, certainly in the past, most pubs had a budget of £400 from brewery, claimed that from brewery and paid band £250-£300

[JTUK]

[quote name='gapiro' timestamp='1461056871' post='3030938']
Actually what we find round these parts is that, certainly in the past, most pubs had a budget of £400 from brewery, claimed that from brewery and paid band £250-£300
[/quote]

Yes, which is why Brewery's want to take the cash element out of the equation..

One Brewery round here subsidise a LOT of music in pubs but also book direct so pay the bands far more on direct gigs and a few decent local bands can
work those ticketed events well. They get paid nearly 3 times as much..depending on who they are... and even the support band gets £400 typically, but
the deal is that the band has to sell 250 tickets @ £10 per head and they aren't many takers.
Some bands are happy to work for £250 which they get whether 2 men and a dog turn up or they really sell it. so from a business point of view, you can
get why the LL/venue want a working business model over the year.
Bands can be very short term and not see the bigger picture...and therefore want paying even on poor attendance nights..
that is fine, but then expect the LL to legislate for poor nights as well.

The better model..IMO.. is £250 per night for the pub band...with a £100 bonus for doing well... but there are no takers all round.
You also have to give the pub the chance to make money as they will have loss nights that they band just doesn't have to entertain..

I think good music savvy LL's don't mind paying the band whatever they ask for...as long as they have made that money at the very least,
it is when the income and out goings are seriously awry that it all falls over and gets tricky.

[gjones]

Hm mmm....reading some of these posts makes me realise that the better paying venues always require an invoice to be sent to their central office before a payment is made. It stops managers pocketing the difference in what they pay you and what head office allocates them for bands

[uk_lefty]

Tricky one. Having organised bands for a bar I worked in as a student years back we always got a bit icky over money. Some bands demanded a thousand pounds (in 2003) to play in our cellar with max capacity of a hundred if lucky, but were unwilling to do any promo like putting up posters (told them to sell their own tickets or jog on). Some acoustic acts wanted a hundred quid to play like crap with inaudible equipment to their crowd of unemployed vagrants crowding round ten to a half pint of coke... One night I wasn't working and a trio couldn't make it so the lead singer came on his own, did a great set, and my colleague decided to only pay him a third of the fee "because there's only one of you"! He never came back.
It's so hard for a pub to make money I don't blame a landlord for passing a pot around, but he should have told you up front "don't worry lads, we will pass the pot around and I'll make it up to *whatever amount* if it's not enough. If it's more, you keep it". All in all, I've had far worse acts of dickery inflicted on me in this biz, but if everyone is honest up front people can make their choices without these kind of quandaries.
Maybe air your grievance with said landlord and see his side of it? It may be a misunderstanding, hopefully, or you can make him be clearer in future, and you retain a venue you enjoy playing

Edited April 20, 2016 by uk_lefty

[funkgod]

you could go back and beat him to it by anouncing you have raffle tickets with a prize in aid to meet your normal fee,

Edited April 23, 2016 by funkgod

[blue]

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1460824511' post='3029149']
I really don't see any problem with it. You agreed a fee & I presume got paid it. How the bar manager finds that cash is up to him, pay at the door, a few pence on a pint, pass round a hat. Isn't that called business?
[/quote]

I do. Depends on the bands business model.

We don't want people to have to pay to see us. We're a bar band.

We're established with a solid book of business so we can be picky about gigs.

We would never play anywhere where they passed around a hat. We won't play places that have a cover charge either.

Blue

Edited April 24, 2016 by blue

[blue]

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1460830478' post='3029224']
Got to agree with Mr Dog, above. In my local, people used to tip the bar staff on the understanding that they got the tips, when it emerged that the landlord (no names, but anyone who knows me will know which Australian I mean!) was in the habit of taking the contents of the tip jar for himself, everyone stopped tipping.
[/quote]

Good

Blue