Tone, presence and the mids!

[razze06]

I wonder if anyone has got any suggestions to improve my amplified tone, especially in terms of increasing presence without increasing volume too much, and improving clarity of the E string.

I use a KK bassmax pickup, direct into the amp. Do I really need to buy a preamp to shape the eq to bump up the nice mid frequencies, or are there any techniques or tricks to improve the tone to that effect? Do I need different strings? I've got some Innovation Golden Slaps on (I think), which have seen moderate use for about 6 months so far.

[Blartfactor10]

A Pre amp would help, A second hand Fishman platinum pro, if moneys no problem a Radial PZ pre, Or even a KK pre or an FDec. These would tailor the signal prior to hitting the front of the amp. Nothing wrong with Silver slaps btw a great string for Pizz and Slap. If you want to go that bit further, a Greenboy Cab would seal the deal.

[Maude]

I'm by no stretch of the imagination an encyclopedia on doublebass, but I've found that whilst boosting mids on electric bass really helps cut through, doing the same on doublebass just produces a very 'boxy' sound which doesn't sound nice.
I'm using Innovation Rockabillys and going for that traditional thud, rather than bright jazzy kind of sound.
Whether that helps you or not I don't know.

[TheRev]

A preamp with a high pass filter will help tighten up the E string tone. Much as I love Innovation strings, I always struggle to get the sound I'm looking for out of the E and A. I now use Spiro Weich E and A with synthetic G & D.

[JoeEvans]

Which side of the bridge do you use the pickup on? I've read that the K&K Bass Max can sound muddy and boomy on the E side, and can sound better on the G side.

[Gareth Hughes]

+1 for TheRev's comment about high pass filter. They really work wonders. I have one on my Acoustic Image head, but also have one on the form of a Wren&Cuff Suppa Phat Phuk pedal that I like even better. It has a wonderful way of bringing out the high's and mid's without seeming like it's boosting anything. The most natural sound I've ever had through an amp.

[The Jaywalker]

What kind of sound/tone are you looking for in your playing? is your amp on the floor or on a chair/stand when you play? How do you generally eq?

[razze06]

Jaywalker, I'm looking for a little more presence, and more definition in the lower register. For gigging I normally use a PJB briefcase for small gigs, or whatever backline is provided. The latter case is where I am having problems, as I can eq with the PJB to get a better tone and presence.

When I have to use somebody else's backline (including practice rooms), I struggle to get even volume from all the strings, and i lose a lot of mids. This results in booming at one end, and thin at the other, especially if I have to crank up the volume to hear myself better.

I generally try to eq with a slight boost to the lower mids and "middle mids", forming a slightly wonky frown with the eq knobs ("upturned smile with crooked teeth"). So far, whenever possible I have tried to get some help with the low end from wall reflex, so I tended to put the amp on a low stand close to the back wall. Lately I've started to move the amp a little forward and away from the wall.

I had thought for a while that the positioning of the pickup was wrong, as my bridge doesn't have flat slots, but the sound I get from it on my gigging amp is good, so I'm inclined to think there is nothing wrong with it...

Considering that my main problem is with borrowed amps, I should get myself a nice preamp to help me along in those cases, and hope that works.

[The Jaywalker]

Yeah, using the "house" gear can be a complete pain. Electric bass amps are rarely unbiased in their tone reproduction, even when flat.
Important to remember that eq' ing DB is usually a process of subtraction, ie start flat and take off what's not there in your sound. Boosting mids could indicate that you might be looking at a different string choice?
If you are having issues with a lack of definition in the lower register, then back off the low end. DB's produce so many overtones that your bass won't be producing much below 80hz on your low E - there will be a small amount of 40hz (low E fundamental), a slightly larger spike at 60hz but the frequency response starts proper at 80hz. Any bass response from the amp is mostly going to add mud which isn't really there in the natural sound. Try it next time you're in a rehearsal room etc - and take a long lead. If it sounds like there's not enough bass under your ear, then head about 3-4m away from the amp, roughly where the bass wave curves back in and meets the higher frequencies. Chances are it'll sound just fine!

Edited April 25, 2016 by The Jaywalker

[Marty Forrer]

A Golden Slap E string is not bad, but not good either. Same will apply to any of the gut or synthetic strings. The only way to get great definition is with a steel string, or a composite like Velvet Garbo. The best ever definition and tops come from Greenboy speaker cabs that have the 6" mid driver. The 6" and it's relevant crossover give the best high mids and sweetest highs I've ever heard.

[razze06]

Thanks you all for your good advice. I'll put to the test as many suggestions as I can on Thursday, and report back

[krispn]

Hey fella
Watch this video from about 4.25 for an upright demo with this pre...

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvAp9ygCAvw"]https://www.youtube....h?v=hvAp9ygCAvw[/url]

I've a RMI Basswitch which you are welcome to try out. You can change the impedance from 1mega ohm to 10 mega ohm on it to get more 'definition' as well as a clean boost and all the eq you could need.

Gimme a shout via PM if you wanna tr it out.

G

Edited April 26, 2016 by krispn

[razze06]

So I tried to follow your advice, and got different results...

I switched side of the bridge for the K&K pickup, I cut the low freq rumble, and removed unwanted frequencies from the eq. I also stood on the other side of the room from the amp, to see if I could hear the lower freq better than when I stood right by it.

Results: Just couldn't get a good sound out of the amp, so I ditched it and went through the room PA. The sound is thin, but at least it's pretty even across the range. Moving the pickup to the other side of the bridge caused a thinning of the sound, but the rumble of the E was clearly reduced, meaning I could dig in if I wanted to, without danger of destroying equipment

I have a rather simple iphone video recording of what I sounded like. I don't like it very much... (The playing is pretty shocking, but it's a new song and I'm still learning it, so apologies for that)

https://www.facebook.com/158199286951/videos/10154156165646952/

[The Jaywalker]

Aye, sometimes it's a lost cause with an unsuitable amp! A preamp with a bit of eq could be useful - depending on the "house" amp you can sometimes plug in through the effects loop, if there is one, and bypass the amp's preamp stage to get a sound. Sometimes works out.

I reckon it would be helpful for you to look at things more holistically to get what you're aiming for. Remember, DB isn't like BG - you can't eq a sound in if that sound isn't there acoustically already. With that in mind, I'd firstly suggest ditching the Innovations. They're never going to give you any definition as such, as that's not really part of the Rockabilly/pretend gut sound those strings are aimed at. Strings are expensive, so check out eBay and the classifieds here etc! Spirocores are the obvious place to start, I guess. If you like old-school vibes then Velvet Blues, SuperSensitive (pro ones, not the cheaps) and Pirastro Obligato are all a good bet.

Another crucial part of DB tone is in your RH and LH technique. Try placing your RH much closer to the end of the fingerboard and this will naturally add a bit more definition to the sound. Also, work on much more consistency with your RH and on using more arm-weight/less finger etc. Usual stuff.
Consistent LH technique is really important to sound/tone as well. Try stopping the string hard with your LH; the sound will be focussed and bassy. All good. However, as you back off the LH pressure you can hear the sound open up and become more colourful and "growly", with more natural mids and definition. If you haven't tried doing this before, the difference can be startling.

I guess the holistic point I'm making is that if we can optimise as much as possible the sound we create acoustically; then we can improve our chances when we plug in to unfamiliar or less than suitable amplification. Hopefully...

[razze06]

Good advice, Thanks. I know I could and should improve my LH and RH technique a lot, and I knew about getting my RH closer to the end of the fingerboard to get more defined sound. I hadn't tried the LH thing you talk about, and I definitely press down fairly hard when I play. I shall practice.

Despite all this, the acoustic sound is much better than the amped sound, which is the main source of my irritation. Perhaps different strings, as you say.

[TheRev]

Changing strings will make a massive difference to your tone. As I said, I've converted from Innovation E/A to Spiro weich E & A and got much more definition as a result. If you want to stick with Innovation then you should try the braided orchestral set, I found the E to have more definition than I can usually get from an Innovation E string. D'Arddario Zyex and Pirastro Evah Pirazzi strings are also worth a try.

If you're happy with the acoustic sound, then I reckon a proper DB preamp that will buffer the high impedance from the Bassmax will sort your amplified sound right out. If you can, get a preamp with a high pass filter so you can remove those troublesome wooly frequencies. The Fishman Platnum Pro Plus (now discontinued) is a good bet, if you can find a used one for sale. The Headway EDB 2 is good if you like loads of knobs, or if you don't like knobs and can use a soldering iron you can build yourself a copy of the nifty little FDeck HPF pre.

[url="https://sites.google.com/site/hpftechllc/home/hpf-pre"]https://sites.google.com/site/hpftechllc/home/hpf-pre[/url]

[Beer of the Bass]

I spent a couple of hours jamming on a friends bass last year which had the Innovation slap strings on, though I'm not sure which set. The E and A were definitely on the thumpy and indistinct side - I could see it working in bluegrass or rockabilly, but maybe not the best thing for a defined pizz sound. They were easy to get around and would probably slap well if you were into that, but otherwise any of the strings Jay suggested would definitely help get the sound a bit clearer. I quite liked Innovation Honeys though, they're still a synthetic cored string but much less thumpy than the slap strings.

[razze06]

I've got a gig on thursday, Depending on my tone that night, i might be perusing the website of a certain musical equipment vendor...

[JoeEvans]

The Fishman Platinum Stage seems like a good option, a lot cheaper than the Platinum Pro but still good eq and can be used as a DI box.

[jrixn1]

I also use a Bass Max (installed on the normal "E" side) and no external pre-amp.

+1 to the suggestion of steels - I have Golden Slaps D/G and Spiro E/A.

[razze06]

New strings ordered. I shall report on inevitable tone improvement shortly

[bassmayhem]

I got a cheap but very good plywood doghouse I bought to start playing rockabilly on. It has Innovation Silver Slaps (they cost more than I paid for the bass) and my old Realist Copperhead. I plug it into my Fishman Platinum Pro Eq, and it makes wonder!!! You have the high pass filter, the notch filter to eliminate feedback and howling wolf notes, as well as a phase switch that makes a good deal of sense. A good thing with the Platinum is that you have built-in tuner and compressor. Also a four band eq with sweepable mid. A nice pedal that makes my cheapo Mickey Mouse upright sound good. Not just ok, but really good. I have my all wooden bass that I don't take out to rock gigs, but it has no pickup right now. I am certain it will sound fantastic when I equip it with a Realist Lifeline, since its acoustic tone is big and full with a firm nice bottom(!)...

Try the Platinum Pro if you have the chance! I have the Basswitch too, another really good preamp, but it has no notch filter.

Edited May 3, 2016 by bassmayhem