Jazz - focus on treble clef?

[project_c]

I think I know what the answer to this will be (learn both..), but it occurred to me recently that as someone studying and playing jazz, it may be more beneficial for me to focus on reading treble clef. Right now I can read bass clef, but it's very slow and nowhere near sight-reading standard, and I transcribe and learn everything by ear. This works fine with the use of editing and recording software, but at some point soon I do need to get my reading sorted.

In terms of what i find most useful in a jazz context, it's always learning a melody and transcribing a solo - rarely a bass solo, mostly other instruments. There is a lot of material out there that helps with this in treble clef, real books, solo transcriptions etc.

So I'm now thinking if I could have access to that stuff, it would help me more than bass clef, which I only really use to occasionally scribble out a walking line. (When I learn lines and solos, I don't write them down, I memorise them and record them).

So for jazz players - would you advise against this and focus on bass clef? The reason why I need to focus on one or the other is just because of time limitations, just trying to figure out what's most useful for picking up and absorbing more language.

[Steve Woodcock]

As you guessed, my answer is to learn both. Certainly don't abandon the bass clef, as a bass player this is your bread and butter. Remember the only difference between the two clefs is the pitch information - rhythm and note duration etc. are the same so it is not like you are learning a new language and any time spent on one clef will aid the other in recognition and performance of this information. Discounting ledger lines, there are just 5 lines on each stave and 4 spaces in between - that's not much to learn

[ras52]

[quote name='Stickman' timestamp='1462448636' post='3043072']
As you guessed, my answer is to learn both. Certainly don't abandon the bass clef, as a bass player this is your bread and butter. Remember the only difference between the two clefs is the pitch information - rhythm and note duration etc. are the same so it is not like you are learning a new language and any time spent on one clef will aid the other in recognition and performance of this information. Discounting ledger lines, there are just 5 lines on each stave and 4 spaces in between - that's not much to learn
[/quote]

Yep, All Cows Eat Grass, Good Boys Deserve Favour Always... sorted, 🤓

[Dad3353]

I found that it helped, when I was doing this decades ago, to understand that these are two parts of the same stave, really, separated only by an absent 'Middle C' in between. Visualising the whole, 11-line stave enables reading in either upper or lower half, depending on context. Piano parts are often written across both halves, and pianists seem to manage OK, don't they..? Absorb the whole concept from the outset; then any one half becomes rather an 'easy' exercise, compared to reading the whole stave at once. I don't differentiate between treble or bass staves; they're just halves of a whole, really.
Just my tuppence-worth; hope it helps.

[JapanAxe]

That'll be the 'grand stave' then Dad.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1462451005' post='3043095']
That'll be the 'grand stave' then Dad.
[/quote]

Indeed. I'm not suggesting that all should be written that way (it's cumbersome...); merely that it makes more sense, to me, to understand that the bass and treble staves are not so different or difficult to learn, if taken as parts of a whole. When reading one or the other, one is really only reading less than half a stave, so it's relatively easy..!

[ambient]

I can read both, though I get slow with treble clef if I don't use it for a while. I recently did some scores that used alto too, that was a real pain.

It's great to be able to sight-read treble clef in a jazz situation, you do quite often get given heads to play, sometimes in along with other instruments. These are usually in treble clef.

[zbd1960]

The 'great staff' of 11 lines is cumbersome and we've settled on using 4 five line clefs or views over the 11. The one you use is selected to avoid having too many leger lines all the time. For most people, two are used - the treble for the top 5, the bass for the bottom 5 and 'middle C' is the one missing in between the two. There are two C clefs - Alto (C3) and Tenor (C4) which are used by some instruments (cello and bassoon use tenor when high up rather than bass to reduce the number of leger lines. Alto is used by viola and a few other instruments).

There used to be more (e.g. French violin clef, soprano clef, baritone clef) but these have withered and are no longer used at all.

The instruments I play require me to use all 4 standard clefs...

Edited May 5, 2016 by zbd1960

[project_c]

Thanks for the replies, learning both and not treating them as separate entities makes the most sense, I know. It's just a lot of hard work when there's so much other stuff to practice..

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1462465187' post='3043267']
I can read both, though I get slow with treble clef if I don't use it for a while. I recently did some scores that used alto too, that was a real pain.

It's great to be able to sight-read treble clef in a jazz situation, you do quite often get given heads to play, sometimes in along with other instruments. These are usually in treble clef.
[/quote]

This is it, I end up playing the head on a lot of tunes but I have to memorise that stuff, I'm nowhere near a stage where I could tackle sight reading the head on a tune I haven't studied. It does open up a lot of music for you.

[ambient]

[quote name='project_c' timestamp='1462469004' post='3043321']
Thanks for the replies, learning both and not treating them as separate entities makes the most sense, I know. It's just a lot of hard work when there's so much other stuff to practice..



This is it, I end up playing the head on a lot of tunes but I have to memorise that stuff, I'm nowhere near a stage where I could tackle sight reading the head on a tune I haven't studied. It does open up a lot of music for you.
[/quote]

I can recommend getting a treble clef real book, I have some on pdf I can let you have, and just practice playing through the melody lines. It's good practice too for getting to know the songs.

[Bilbo]

Learning both helps us with writing out tunes as well.

[The Jaywalker]

Also worth noting that the prevailing convention in writing bass music tends towards writing higher register/thumb position passages in treble clef to avoid prolonged ledger lines.

[CH161]

[quote name='The Jaywalker' timestamp='1463744533' post='3053759']
Also worth noting that the prevailing convention in writing bass music tends towards writing higher register/thumb position passages in treble clef to avoid prolonged ledger lines.
[/quote]

Absolutely!

It makes a lot of sense to be familiar with both bass and treble clefs. Both for playing and writing.

It's quite common to see a single staff part which changes from bass to treble clef when the notes are getting high.

[XB26354]

It's also probably worth mentioning that electric and upright bass is written an octave higher than it would sound if written for piano - so that open E on the line below the bass clef will be an octave higher when a piano plays it compared to a bass. It doesn't matter that much as bass is an accompaniment instrument but worth knowing the actual range.

[Higgie]

[quote name='CH161' timestamp='1464114435' post='3056686']

It's quite common to see a single staff part which changes from bass to treble clef when the notes are getting high.
[/quote]

I've always found this to be a bit strange. Personally I just notate everything an octave below and mark it as 8va. If there are going to be too many leger lines, to me it makes sense to keep the clef the same, just write it out normally and indicate it's to be played an octave up, rather than change the whole clef, as if the notes are ascending anyway, you'll still get leger lines. Is it just me?

[CH161]

[quote name='Higgie' timestamp='1465318038' post='3067098']
I've always found this to be a bit strange. Personally I just notate everything an octave below and mark it as 8va. If there are going to be too many leger lines, to me it makes sense to keep the clef the same, just write it out normally and indicate it's to be played an octave up, rather than change the whole clef, as if the notes are ascending anyway, you'll still get leger lines. Is it just me?
[/quote]

No it's not just you. I much prefer the 8va method myself, especially if sight reading and I certainly write using the 8va.

The thing is, there are a lot of writers/arrangers who don't do it this way.

If I get a Sibelius part to learn, then I will often adapt it to my prefered method of reading. These days though I'm seeing more PDFs that have been extracted from the Sibelius software, and frankly I see all sorts of oddities on the parts.

I think we're in a situation these days where the parts can be written by anybody, and still look on the face of it like proper music.
In the studio with the producers, writers, engineers all watching the clock and you in the booth trying to make sense of the part - it makes sense to have the tool kit handy - part of which, for me at least, is knowing the clefs.

[Higgie]

Correct. I'm in a reading band on a cruise ship for a living and with the exception of our MD who writes amazing charts (not just for the band - a lot of the acts use him for their charts and click tracks as he is absolutely top notch!) most of the charts we are usually presented with are absolute sh*te! I've thankfully not come across too many charts that venture into the treble clef, I just wish there was a standardised way of doing things - And I wish it was 8va rather than treble clef! Haha.

[CH161]

We're in full agreement here.

In fact, these days to save any awkward situations, I try to get an mp3 demo of the track before a recording if possible.

It helps to see what the writer actually had in mind and wanted. This has been more valuable over the last few years when more and more parts have been taken directly from the midi played in on a keyboard and sent over to Sibelius or similar without any further tweaking or checks.

At the end of the day it's all about communicating to the player what you want them to play, but as in all trades, the hired hand shouldn't make the writer - client - look inept on the session! We do that later in the pub!
I see some real shockers!

Edited June 7, 2016 by CH161

[Joebass]

FWIW, 8va indications should only be used with the treble clef. If there is a higher pitched clef available, it should be used in favour of an 8va sign.
I'd wholly recommend becoming fluent with the treble clef and at least familiar with the tenor clef.

[zbd1960]

[quote name='CH161' timestamp='1464114435' post='3056686']
Absolutely!

It makes a lot of sense to be familiar with both bass and treble clefs. Both for playing and writing.

It's quite common to see a single staff part which changes from bass to treble clef when the notes are getting high.
[/quote]
Sounds more sensible for bass than cello then! I have to cope with higher register stuff being in either tenor or treble clef, both are used, sometimes in the same piece.

[zbd1960]

[quote name='XB26354' timestamp='1464890917' post='3063617']
It's also probably worth mentioning that electric and upright bass is written an octave higher than it would sound if written for piano - so that open E on the line below the bass clef will be an octave higher when a piano plays it compared to a bass. It doesn't matter that much as bass is an accompaniment instrument but worth knowing the actual range.
[/quote]It's often forgotten that technically the bass is a transposing instrument, but it transposes at the octave, sounding one octave lower (8vb) than written.

[zbd1960]

[quote name='Joebass' timestamp='1465386178' post='3067706']
FWIW, 8va indications should only be used with the treble clef. If there is a higher pitched clef available, it should be used in favour of an 8va sign.
I'd wholly recommend becoming fluent with the treble clef and at least familiar with the tenor clef.
[/quote]I'd agree, use of 8va within the bass clef to indicate an octave higher is very 'non standard' in terms of notation and could cause a lot of confusion. I play cello in various amateur orchestras and I just have to get on with the fact that I get a change of clef to either tenor or treble and back to bass again all the time. Given that the cello is in effect fretless, navigating the notes is more of a deal than reading notes.

[Bilbo]

If you need a ledger line, you have gone to far. Get back down there!!!

[Higgie]

[quote name='zbd1960' timestamp='1465395728' post='3067846']
I'd agree, use of 8va within the bass clef to indicate an octave higher is very 'non standard' in terms of notation and could cause a lot of confusion. I play cello in various amateur orchestras and I just have to get on with the fact that I get a change of clef to either tenor or treble and back to bass again all the time. Given that the cello is in effect fretless, navigating the notes is more of a deal than reading notes.
[/quote]

Why would marking something to be played an octave higher than written be confusing?

[CH161]

[quote name='Joebass' timestamp='1465386178' post='3067706']
FWIW, 8va indications should only be used with the treble clef. If there is a higher pitched clef available, it should be used in favour of an 8va sign.
[/quote]

Quite true, and certainly correct classically.

It is also true that it could cause confusion as the bass is already sounding an octave lower than written.

However, a lot of players I have worked with don't read treble clef too well, or consider the bass as a transposing instrument.
The 8va tells them what to do and they tend to understand it.
Conventions are important and I'm all for them, but most players can play what they see an octave higher without issue.

I suppose it comes down to context really. It certainly wouldn't be right in a classical part I agree.