Do you help your sound guy?

[blue]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1462912949' post='3046972']
I've been many a time on the sound engi end of things, and have always appreciated any (competent...) aid before or after. As a band member, I'm now well past any more than rolling up cables or rolling away flight cases, but, if it helps the tech team (a solo bloke or a whole flock...) I'll never refuse, once my own gear was done. I'm not the jealous kind, so I don't care about who's being paid for what, and at two in the morning, it's too late (or too early..?) to think about getting home a few minutes sooner. Having done this for over forty years, it's now second nature, but I really can't do much more, now, than stay out of the way and crack dumb jokes till it's finished. We all have our different attitudes; that's mine.
[/quote]

Yes, to all that.

Blue

[Truckstop]

[quote name='jonnythenotes' timestamp='1462901123' post='3046842']
Blow him out.... It's outrageous that he expects you to lift a finger. You pay for him for his services, his PA and his expertise. Unless his contract states you will be roadies for him, sit back and let him get on with it. He will let you do it all day long and think you are the best thing since sliced bread, untill you drop something, or cause an injury to yourself or someone around you....then your on your own... I think this bloke is another one thinks that he is doing the band a favour, and you can't do without him..
[/quote]

+1

And there's hundreds of decent sound guys out there, don't worry about pissing him off.

[TimR]

He should really have made it clear how much help he was expecting from you when you booked him. When we hired a guy he said he would need help lifting subs, speakers and racks out of the van, wheeling them in and positioning them.

They're two man jobs.

[quote name='pete.young' timestamp='1462912235' post='3046958']
Does his insurance cover you for personal injury sustained while you are acting as his unpaid employee?
[/quote]

This would worry me. Ideally he should be bringing someone with muscle. If I smashed a finger unloading from his van and couldn't play - what happens.

If I smash a finger lifting my bass cab out of my car (I wouldn't I wear gloves, but did get a metal splinter before the last gig putting up a speaker stand) that's my lookout.

.

Edited May 11, 2016 by TimR

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1462956609' post='3047173']
(...)
If I smash a finger ...
(...)
[/quote]

...you're left with nine others! Stop complainting and play the gig!

[luckydog]

[QUOTE]Muppet said:

]Strange question but it's worth asking here as we (our band) don't know if we're being unreasonable.

For larger gigs we hire a sound engineer and quality PA. We pay him his invoiced fee. He's not a mate of a mate, doing this for beer money, he's a professional operation and ends up with more than any band member does.

Thing is, he expects us to turn up to venues to help him load in and set up before the gig and to wait around afterwards to coil cables and shift speakers at the end. He's got loads of gear (more than I think is necessary but the sound quality is good so I don't complain). He's not a one man business but most of the time for our gigs does it on his own.

This setting up/taking down takes ages and he gets arsey if we don't help. Are we being unreasonable in thinking this is not really our job, or should we be all teamy and hang around for ages helping him out? From a band side, we all help each other load and pack so we're not selfish in that respect.

thanks
Steve [/QUOTE]

I salute you, Steve, this is surely the way to fly. We do the same and it works really well, makes a huge difference and removes a burden from the band and we can focus on performing, and it sounds way better than we could do.

What we do is help each other with gear - they help us we help them and it all feels right. We have our own seriously heavy and awkward gear, and so do they !

When we use in-house PAs in venues, they still help us loading our gear, and we help with their gear even though its much smaller and simpler. And they do FOH for us, and monitors.

Quid pro quo and happy as Harry, as the romans said when setting up for gigs at the Colleseum !

LD

[zbd1960]

Sounds to me like there is lack of clarity in the Ts&Cs...

Can't tell from here what the scenario is: was set-up/take down fully included? Or, is the fee set at a level with an expectation of some set-up/take down support? From my limited experience, decent sound guys are not two a penny.

If you think you are being taken advantage of (i.e. the implicit assumption is he's making more money by not having to pay a helper) then your only solution is to obtain quotes from other providers and be very clear about what you expect.

Alternatively, he is reasonably priced with an expectation of some support in setting-up/taking down.

A sound engineer is having to either buy or hire equipment, have transport, carry insurance etc so a decent job will not be cut-price.

[luckydog]

Indeed, a decent job is not cheap.

Ian Dury said it well :

Here's a little piece of advice
You're quite welcome it is free
Don't do nothing that is cut price
You know what that'll make you be

LD

[luckydog]

PS: And when you think of how much care, attention, money, sweat, time, love etc is put in to the sound of instruments and amps, it just makes sense to be sure of excellent sound from the PA which it is all going through after all........even if it pretty much guarantees the venture is loss making and usually significantly loss making !

Hey, think just of it as art, not work !

LD

[mcnach]

[quote name='Chrismanbass' timestamp='1462883439' post='3046578']
If you couldn't lift your bass amp into the car would you ask the sound man for help? how would you react if he said no because it was your gear and its "what you are getting paid for"
[/quote]

I don't think it's so much the helping, but the expectation that they will help *AND* stay longer than they have to to help him. Now, if this is a hired guy... it's up to him to define his fee and the level of service he provides, and if he needs help he should state so before being hired. Perhaps he should think of bringing help... but why share the fee if he can get help for free?

So it depends. If he's pricing himself cheaper to help the band then the band helping him is not unreasonable... provided it's stated that way before hiring. If he's not doing the band any favours and just running a business... hey, if he needs help that's his problem, no the band's. It's like hiring catering for a party and find the chef expects the customers to act as waiters too.

[mcnach]

[quote name='jonnythenotes' timestamp='1462901123' post='3046842']
Blow him out.... It's outrageous that he expects you to lift a finger. You pay for him for his services, his PA and his expertise. Unless his contract states you will be roadies for him, sit back and let him get on with it. He will let you do it all day long and think you are the best thing since sliced bread, untill you drop something, or cause an injury to yourself or someone around you....then your on your own... I think this bloke is another one thinks that he is doing the band a favour, and you can't do without him..
[/quote]

+1

would he wait around after he's ready to go, to help the drummer with his kit, and the various bits of equipment? Doubtful.

[mcnach]

[quote name='zbd1960' timestamp='1462966479' post='3047325']
Sounds to me like there is lack of clarity in the Ts&Cs...

Can't tell from here what the scenario is: was set-up/take down fully included? Or, is the fee set at a level with an expectation of some set-up/take down support? From my limited experience, decent sound guys are not two a penny.

If you think you are being taken advantage of (i.e. the implicit assumption is he's making more money by not having to pay a helper) then your only solution is to obtain quotes from other providers and be very clear about what you expect.

Alternatively, he is reasonably priced with an expectation of some support in setting-up/taking down.

A sound engineer is having to either buy or hire equipment, have transport, carry insurance etc so a decent job will not be cut-price.
[/quote]

this sums it up perfectly.

[taunton-hobbit]

I've hung back on this one and the responses have been fairly predictable (that's not a negative btw) -
As a sound system I've been fairly used to doing my own lugging around, but for odd big stuff (& I've done some) I've usually bribed one or two over-keen amateurs into helping out..... If I was doing a consistent(ish) workload of 'proper' gigs I would adopt Blues stance of having my 'assistant' as part of the paid gig.
It's sometimes a good idea to stand back & look at what you are doing, and why.........

[mrtcat]

Help the guy out. Just make sure every third cable is rolled badly and catch his cabs on every door frame you carry them through.

[spencer.b]

How much do you pay him on average?
That's the deciding factor for me .As people have said already there's plenty of good engineer/PA hire people around

[ratman]

I run a PA and when I take a job I usually do it myself. I don't ask for help in or out but if it's offered I don't refuse it. If I know the load in is a pain I'll price the job accordingly to employ some help. If I'm doing PA with one of my bands and I'm playing bass on the gig too the other musicians always help with the break down, I've never had to ask, they just chip in. Although there are a handful of musicians who never turn up early enough to help with the set up....

[TimR]

Yes.

We try to make sure the singer doesn't arrive at the venue more than 10mins before we go on and get him out as soon as we're paid.

It's just a lot easier that way.

[mike257]

I run a small PA hire company, work with a lot of function bands, mainly though an agency contract. They're under no obligation to help me out but it's always bloody well appreciated when they do stick around and do it. Most don't bother (notable exception is a fantastic bass player who's Dad is a sound engineer, so he always offers, even if it means sticking around) but some will do if it doesn't mean a big wait.

[mcnach]

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1462991306' post='3047688']
Help the guy out. Just make sure every third cable is rolled badly and catch his cabs on every door frame you carry them through.
[/quote]


I like your style

[JTUK]

Most bands can have 4k if they run subs. That will do a small stage indoors and outdoors and if probably overkill for a pub but YMMV.

Companies may spec prices by the amount of people..so that is a reasonable reference to measure against.
8k for weekend for 2 man crew is going to cost you the best part of £1k for something like EAW and an LS9-32.


There is a world of difference between the 4 box 4k rig which can go in the back of a decent sized hatch back and something needing
a 2 man crew.
I'd carry a few lightweight subs for the former... but really the save in minutes is marginal..
A 2 hr breakdown is something else and he will/should have priced accordingly.

In general, avoid one man crews, IME. if you can.

[Spike Vincent]

[quote name='Muppet' timestamp='1462882062' post='3046548']
Strange question but it's worth asking here as we (our band) don't know if we're being unreasonable.

For larger gigs we hire a sound engineer and quality PA. We pay him his invoiced fee. He's not a mate of a mate, doing this for beer money, he's a professional operation and ends up with more than any band member does.

Thing is, he expects us to turn up to venues to help him load in and set up before the gig and to wait around afterwards to coil cables and shift speakers at the end. He's got loads of gear (more than I think is necessary but the sound quality is good so I don't complain). He's not a one man business but most of the time for our gigs does it on his own.

This setting up/taking down takes ages and he gets arsey if we don't help. Are we being unreasonable in thinking this is not really our job, or should we be all teamy and hang around for ages helping him out? From a band side, we all help each other load and pack so we're not selfish in that respect.

thanks

Steve
[/quote]

I've done a lot of work as a sound engineer.If this guy is, as you say,a professional operation who's getting paid the going rate, then it's his job to sort his own kit out.End of.

[Muppet]

Lots of interesting replies so thanks to all for taking the time. I guess it does come down to us spending more time on the detail before we engage his services. If he said " it's this price on the basis that you give me a hand" then that's absolutely fine. He is a good guy which is why we will continue to use him and we get on well, but I think clarification on what we are getting for our money is the way to go.

[Dan Dare]

Exactly. I am the sound man for bands I play in (because I own the PA), as well the bass player. They use my kit on the understanding they help me with it. If they don't like that, I hire a gopher to carry it and charge.

[TimR]

[quote name='Muppet' timestamp='1463047819' post='3048032']
Lots of interesting replies so thanks to all for taking the time. I guess it does come down to us spending more time on the detail before we engage his services. If he said " it's this price on the basis that you give me a hand" then that's absolutely fine. He is a good guy which is why we will continue to use him and we get on well, but I think clarification on what we are getting for our money is the way to go.
[/quote]

I'd just be careful how you approach that conversation as you've already agreed to help in principle by helping in the past.

I'd be inclined to say something like it's taking quite a long time to set up and pack down and the band are pretty knackered, and ask if there's a better way for everyone.

Bear in mind that most bands have to double hand their own PA gear anyway - Load the van, empty the van, set up, pack down, load the van, empty the van. So we're already doing a good hour and a half at each end anyway. Or at least the bloke who has agreed to do the PA is.

[julietgreen]

My 'other half' is a veteran sound guy. When he was 'with' a band on tour, there was a certain amount of mucking from all the techs and some of the band in just to get the gear in quickly, but he would never expect a band to help if he's hired for a gig. It's a mixed blessing if people want to help - they're more likely to get in the way or do things how he doesn't want! When we use our own sound guy, we all help, but if we hire someone in, we don't feel we have to help. We've got enough gear to lug about as it is.

[luckydog]

We played on Sat and the company that normally do our sound couldn't make it, so we relied on what the promoter had arranged for an engineer which was all good and fine.

Nevertheless, we really missed our guys. Not only in the sound, but in helping us lug gear and setting up. We coped, but the contribution is far more than just the sound - we know that and value it........

When they provide the FOH PA, we muck in, and the whole thing works quickly and with far less strain, especially when there's limited time for setup and breakdown and soundcheck.

LD