Whats a 70's Jazz worth

[phsycoandy]

In a repost to Odub's post about falling prices, how are Fender prices holding up?
Are semi vintage Fenders holding their price and bucking the trend?

Edited September 28, 2008 by phsycoandy

[Dubs]

have you got any pics? :brow:

[stingrayfan]

[quote name='phsycoandy' post='294125' date='Sep 28 2008, 08:07 PM']can u guys make me feel better or worse by indicating the current market prices.[/quote]
Is the answer £5 and a packet of Haribo Sour Mix?

[bass_ferret]

Depends if you are buying or selling

[small_lump_of_green_putty]

Ask Bassmankev, he's got an opinion on the price of everything advertised in the classifieds. The rest of us aren't young enough to know everything.

Edited September 28, 2008 by Stinkywhizzleteats

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='phsycoandy' post='294125' date='Sep 28 2008, 08:07 PM']In a repost to Odub's post about falling prices, how are Fender prices holding up?
Are semi vintage Fenders holding their price and bucking the trend?[/quote]

Oddly enough semi-vintage or vintage Fenders have 'always' bucked the trend... so far

[tempo]

[quote name='Stinkywhizzleteats' post='294247' date='Sep 28 2008, 11:13 PM']Ask Bassmankev, he's got an opinion on the price of everything advertised in the classifieds. The rest of us aren't young enough to know everything.[/quote]

that is quality!

[Sibob]

The way I understand it is that the vintage guitar market is always appreciating along with other markets, when other markets are not doing so well, or falling into recession etc, the vintage market just plateaus and bubbles along until it starts to appreciate again!

There's a reason why many people are putting their faith into vintage instruments as part of their retirement plans!

Si

[Josh]

[quote name='Stinkywhizzleteats' post='294247' date='Sep 28 2008, 11:13 PM']Ask Bassmankev, he's got an opinion on the price of everything advertised in the classifieds. The rest of us aren't young enough to know everything.[/quote]

Meow.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Sibob' post='294260' date='Sep 28 2008, 11:44 PM']The way I understand it is that the vintage guitar market is always appreciating along with other markets, when other markets are not doing so well, or falling into recession etc, the vintage market just plateaus and bubbles along until it starts to appreciate again!

There's a reason why many people are putting their faith into vintage instruments as part of their retirement plans!

Si[/quote]

I'd agree with most of what you say Si but I'd add the caveat that there is nothing to say that the market for vintage instruments won't suddenly collapse.

Buying a vintage instrument (or keeping one till it is vintage) is fine if you enjoy it (playing or looking at) but I'd personally not bank on an instrument or instruments paying for my pension. Just my opinion but I'm a bit old school in that respect.

[Marcus]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='294304' date='Sep 29 2008, 08:13 AM']I'd agree with most of what you say Si but I'd add the caveat that there is nothing to say that the market for vintage instruments won't suddenly collapse.

Buying a vintage instrument (or keeping one till it is vintage) is fine if you enjoy it (playing or looking at) but I'd personally not bank on an instrument or instruments paying for my pension. Just my opinion but I'm a bit old school in that respect. [/quote]

yeah keep your coin safely in the NR or BB

or better yet invest it in property !!

[Musky]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='294304' date='Sep 29 2008, 08:13 AM']I'd agree with most of what you say Si but I'd add the caveat that there is nothing to say that the market for vintage instruments won't suddenly collapse.

Buying a vintage instrument (or keeping one till it is vintage) is fine if you enjoy it (playing or looking at) but I'd personally not bank on an instrument or instruments paying for my pension. Just my opinion but I'm a bit old school in that respect. [/quote]

+1

It's worth bearing in mind that a lot of people were buying classic cars as investments in the late 80's, and the market utterly collapsed with the early nineties recession. Anything is only worth as much as someone is prepared to pay for it.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Musky' post='294349' date='Sep 29 2008, 09:56 AM']+1

It's worth bearing in mind that a lot of people were buying classic cars as investments in the late 80's, and the market utterly collapsed with the early nineties recession. Anything is only worth as much as someone is prepared to pay for it.[/quote]

Ditto stamps. All markets go up and down, which is why the phrase 'An end to boom and bust' is total b****cks. Who'd have thought Musicman prices would have tanked? Or that unprovenanced 50's black-guard Telecasters would go up to £50k?

In answer to the OP, who knows? Depending on condition £500-£2000. Not as much as a 60's though...

Edited September 29, 2008 by skankdelvar

[Sibob]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='294572' date='Sep 29 2008, 02:57 PM']Ditto stamps. All markets go up and down, which is why the phrase 'An end to boom and bust' is total b****cks. Who'd have thought Musicman prices would have tanked? [b]Or that unprovenanced 50's black-guard Telecasters would go up to £50k[/b]?

In answer to the OP, who knows? Depending on condition £500-£2000. Not as much as a 60's though...[/quote]

But you've just kinda made the point yourself! We've been through recessions before and those guitars still gained value!

As and when the 50's and 60's stuff becomes priced out of the market (only available to rich collectors etc), the early 70's gear, pre '74, will start making big jumps in prices!!

Si

[Musky]

[quote name='Sibob' post='294581' date='Sep 29 2008, 03:10 PM']But you've just kinda made the point yourself! We've been through recessions before and those guitars still gained value!

As and when the 50's and 60's stuff becomes priced out of the market (only available to rich collectors etc), the early 70's gear, pre '74, will start making big jumps in prices!!

Si[/quote]

Or the point could be that in 1951 no one could have guessed that guitar based music could have become so established 50 years later.

I'm not even going to try to guess how people are going to be making music in 20 years time.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Sibob' post='294581' date='Sep 29 2008, 03:10 PM']But you've just kinda made the point yourself! We've been through recessions before and those guitars still gained value!

As and when the 50's and 60's stuff becomes priced out of the market (only available to rich collectors etc), the early 70's gear, pre '74, will start making big jumps in prices!!

Si[/quote]

Sibob, you may be considerably richer than me , but 50's and 60's stuff is already priced out of the market for Joe Average - about the only 60's Fender you'd get for less than a grand is a Musicmaster.

IMHO, 70's stuff is already overpriced - very average P's and J's hovering around the grand or over. Funnily enough, about 5 years ago, the cut-off point for 'vintage was 69-71. As the market ages and prices inflate and dealers look for something to shift, the cut-off point keeps moving forward. 5 years from now, it will be 1980.

(Having seen a 'Vintage' late 70's Strat in Denmark St that someone had run an angle grinder across to simulate playing wear, and priced at £1500, I feel qualified to say that there is a mighty stink afoot).

OTOH, Some tender souls won't buy anything by Fender after CBS took over in 1965. IMO this is a mistake, as most agree that some good stuff was produced up till about 1969-70, when sweeping changes were made to construction, materials, routers and finishes. Thereafter, Fender produced guitars that were sufficiently sub-standard as to create the whole sorry 'vintage' phenomenon. This came to an end in the early 80's when CBS pulled out and the only Fenders you could buy were made in Japan. Thereafter, fender got back on track, and by the 90's were producing decent guitars again. That's about a 12 year gap, into which fall the 70's Fenders.

I think that the average Fender before and after the wilderness years 71-83 is, on the whole, a generally better instrument. Not by much, not all, but most. As a result, their rate of price inflation may be lower than the market average.

So one would be wise to either shell out for a 60's and hope to make a few bob trading it on, or buy an "mid-80's > Now" and just play it.

The point about appreciation is that in most instances, in most markets, it occurs gradually over a long period. During this time and within market sub-sectors, you can get sentiment-driven bubbles - like the Blackguard Tele phenomenon. Periodically, these bubbles burst. Sure they may end up a little higher than at the point immediately before the bubble, but immediately after the bubble bursts, the price usually experiences a savage decline from the historic high.

Over a long period, therefore, the totality of the market appreciates, but within that time frame, it can also fall. This is not the same as a constant rate of positive growth. The return on your investment therefore depends on when you get on the escalator.

Furthermore, all sorts of tat gets marketed as vintage, gets overpriced and then drops like a stone when the recession hits. This drags the market average down.

Now, for truly desirable instruments, such as Sunburst Les Pauls, early Strats and Teles, the rate of increase is nearly always greater than the market average. For other instruments, the rate of inflation is slower in the long run. And for some instruments, well, they fail to achieve vintage status and rarely appreciate beyond their original price when new, when adjusted for RP inflation. Ovation Electrics, or Fender Acoustics, for example.

(OTOH, some instruments seem to remain relatively good value without huge appreciations in price. You can get a 50's Gibson ES 225 for a 20th of the cost of a 58 Les Paul. It looks fantastic, plays well and is high quality 50's workmanship. Just less demand and rarity.)

So, recessions come and go (I'm on my 4th now) and, like most people, I avoid buying overpriced quality vintage rarities or overpriced old tat. It's not about how much the guitar is worth - it's whether you enjoy playing it.

The hilarious thing is that in volume terms, by comparison to guitars, there's almost no market for 'Vintage' basses. And ain't that grand.

Edited September 30, 2008 by skankdelvar

[Kev]

[quote name='Stinkywhizzleteats' post='294247' date='Sep 28 2008, 11:13 PM']Ask Bassmankev, he's got an opinion on the price of everything advertised in the classifieds. The rest of us aren't young enough to know everything.[/quote]
wtf!

seriously whats yours and the other guys problems with me lately, i dont even know who the hell you are?? and is there any reason why i keep gettin reffered to as being young?? okay theres some experienced people in here, but id hardly say 20 was young compared to others on this site. get a f***ing grip and grow up

Edited September 30, 2008 by BassManKev

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='295053' date='Sep 30 2008, 02:03 AM']I think that the average Fender before and after the wilderness years 71-83 is, on the whole, a generally better instrument.[/quote]

It's worth pointing out that Fender made some of their best, well-built instruments around 81-83.

Also, I strongly believe the rot set in around '74. Prior to that, they were using 60's stock and 60's methods. As a result, there are some wonderful early 70's Fenders around - along with some dogs, but nothing like the hit/miss rate of the later 70s.

[Stan_da_man]

£5. IMO of course.

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote name='BassManKev' post='295055' date='Sep 30 2008, 02:15 AM']wtf!

seriously whats yours and the other guys problems with me lately, i dont even know who the hell you are?? and is there any reason why i keep gettin reffered to as being young?? okay theres some experienced people in here, but id hardly say 20 was young compared to others on this site. get a f***ing grip and grow up[/quote]

Let's have none of the character bashing, thankyou very much guys! Kev is a really nice guy and deserves none of this.

Rich.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='295179' date='Sep 30 2008, 10:11 AM']Let's have none of the character bashing, thankyou very much guys! Kev is a really nice guy and deserves none of this.

Rich.[/quote]

The same for everybody else.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='295089' date='Sep 30 2008, 08:23 AM']It's worth pointing out that Fender made some of their best, well-built instruments around 81-83.

Also, I strongly believe the rot set in around '74. Prior to that, they were using 60's stock and 60's methods. As a result, there are some wonderful early 70's Fenders around - along with some dogs, but nothing like the hit/miss rate of the later 70s.[/quote]

Fair point about some of their best 81-83. The so-named 'Dan Smith' Strats were supposed to be very nice. So, a coupla years either way, but we agree that late 70's was a particularly suspect point in the company's history, as it was for Gibson, Martin and many others.

To support this, I confess to ownership of a '76 Tele that's a complete woofer, when compared to a 2 yr old £150 Squier. But when my mum bought it for me in '79, I thought it was marvellous. (Well, it was, compared to the Jedson that preceded it.)

My current (and only) bass is a '69 P, and, while I'd love to bang on about vintage 'Mojo', it's nothing special. Loads of better basses around.

Please note, as per the discussion, I'm thinking about 70's Fenders in purely monetary terms; casting no nasturtiums on anyone's cherished axe or playability / tone thereof. We all love our children in different ways and for different things.

So, again, I'm quite glad there's less of a 'Vintage' bass market. Like for like, older basses seem generally to be more realistically priced than guitars.

Which is good news for everyone.

[Jarhead]

[quote name='BassManKev' post='295055' date='Sep 30 2008, 02:15 AM']wtf!

seriously whats yours and the other guys problems with me lately, i dont even know who the hell you are?? and is there any reason why i keep gettin reffered to as being young?? okay theres some experienced people in here, but id hardly say 20 was young compared to others on this site. get a f***ing grip and grow up[/quote]
Seriously guys, if Basssmankev's young enough to know everything, then I know the meaning of life, the secrets of time travel, and the location of the fountain of youth, what with me being 14. That's just stupid guys, I mean, what did he do to deserve it.
Zach

[Kev]

thanks mate, but i think its best it is left alone now, iv pm'd various people trying to get to the bottom of it, to no avail, let people think of me what they want

[YouMa]

I am 5!