Mornats Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 (edited) I need some advice on upgrading my current hi-fi amp/receiver. Here's my setup: Rotel RA-930AX amp Tannoy E11 speakers (bi-wired and sealed - bit of a custom job by the Tannoy rep ) Source: Mostly PC through an Asus Xonar Essence STX I've had the Rotel and the Tannoy's for around 25 years and they've sounded great to me. I'm also extremely familiar with the sound after all this time. I'm only thinking of upgrading as my amp is starting to blow the same fuse over and over which results in horrid crackling and no audio from one speaker. I've replaced the fuse a couple of times which fixes the problem for a while but now I think I'm going to have to admit defeat and retire my faithful friend. I'm currently looking at the Marantz PM5005 and the Marantz PM6005 as my upgrade route. There's about £100 difference in price (£165 vs £250). I plan to take my current amp and speakers into Richer Sounds and audition both amps to see which is best. I'll be open to auditioning others too. So anyway, my question lies with the source that I'll be feeding into the amp. Most of what I listen to is played through my PC. Before you cringe, this isn't going through any crappy onboard sound. My motherboard claims that the onboard sound is best in class (I have an Asus Maximus Ranger VII) but the reality is that it's pants. So I use an Asus Xonar Essence STX. The sound is amazing. The main difference between the Marantz 5005 and the 6005 is that the 6005 has an optical in and a good DAC. My soundcard has an optical out so that would seem like the best option. However, the soundcard also has a very good Burrs-Brown DAC with swapable opamps. I can't really take my PC into Richer Sounds to demo the difference between RCA output from the soundcard using the Burrs-Brown DAC vs. going through the optical out and using the 6005's Cirrus Logic DAC. I don't want to spend £100 on a DAC that doesn't offer anything better than my current one. So, any ideas if using the soundcard's DAC via the RCA connection to the 5005 would be any different to using the soundcard's optical out and going into the 6005's DAC via an optical connection? Cable quality plays a part in the RCA connection but I've got a high quality Cambridge Audio connector cable which should hopefully mitigate some/most of that maybe? Edited May 20, 2016 by Mornats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 You got me here under false pretences! I want my money back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornats Posted May 20, 2016 Author Share Posted May 20, 2016 Could have been worse. I could have tweeted my own name Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 If that's the only factor, then I'd take the RCA route, mostly because it leaves the future open, as RCA gear is rife. Unless you can convince yourself that you can actually hear an improved (or less degraded..?) signal with the Cirrus Logic DAC over the Burrs-Brown, and that this difference is worth £100..? Only you can really call that, of course, but I wouldn't bet on my old ears picking up anything different between 'em. Not helping much, eh..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 I hate to be an old cynic (but I will...) - there to me is a difference between 'liking' what you hear out of a system, and struggling to hear the second cellist on the right picking his nose................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornats Posted May 20, 2016 Author Share Posted May 20, 2016 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1463770529' post='3054003'] If that's the only factor, then I'd take the RCA route, mostly because it leaves the future open, as RCA gear is rife. Unless you can convince yourself that you can actually hear an improved (or less degraded..?) signal with the Cirrus Logic DAC over the Burrs-Brown, and that this difference is worth £100..? Only you can really call that, of course, but I wouldn't bet on my old ears picking up anything different between 'em. Not helping much, eh..? [/quote] Good point. I forgot to mention that most of the music I listen to is via Spotify so any subtle differences will probably be lost by the compression anyway. Although I do check any music that I create by going through my soundcard, amp and speakers. So I do tend to listen to 24 bit uncompressed audio too but as I'm checking it to see what it sounds like on a hi-fi system I'm more interested in the hi-fi sound than the pristine quality. I'm veering towards the 5005... [quote name='taunton-hobbit' timestamp='1463770785' post='3054009'] I hate to be an old cynic (but I will...) - there to me is a difference between 'liking' what you hear out of a system, and struggling to hear the second cellist on the right picking his nose................. [/quote] Ah yes, I wouldn't disagree with that. I'm aiming at the budget end so I'm not that much of an audiophile. My main concern is that it sounds at least as good as my current system. I was able to spot the difference between Skol's cryptic audio test over in the recording section using my current setup. I'm used to hear clear audio but there is definitely a point where I can't hear the difference between higher end systems at all. Speaking of Skol, he did mention that a set of speaker stands made the world of difference to his setup and mine are currently sat on my desk to maybe the 5005 and a set of stands is the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowieBass Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 I've been listening to music more often through my old system (since moving to a house that's better sound insulated) and I too have the Rotel RA-930AX - mine's teamed with Mission 760i bookshelf speakers. The speakers sit on Atacama Nexus 6 stands (the current equivalent seems to be the 6i stands) and I'm very happy with the stability and look of the stands (mine are in the black finish). The 6 designation refers to the stand height of 60cm so they're quite tall. The stands are spiked which sit on small aluminium spike cups on a laminate floor. I fortunately haven't had any problems with fuses blowing in the Rotel amp though I have had some intermittent issues (as in once or twice) with losing sound on the right channel (which seems connected with the pots and switches - as in the source selector and maybe the speaker direct switch too). I've read that these amps do benefit from having all the pots and switches cleaned so I might well open it up and take a look some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 I have an Asus laptop and I sometimes play stuff on it through the main hi-fi (usually for sound files which have been sent through Messenger or similar, or for the odd recording of a concert I've made). Something which makes a definite improvement is to connect the laptop to the pre-amp via an offboard DAC such as the ones sold in Maplin for about £30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornats Posted May 20, 2016 Author Share Posted May 20, 2016 I'll have to rethink the position of my desk if I get some speaker stands as I've checked and there's not a lot of room around there at the moment. But I'm definitely thinking it'll be a good idea. One thing to consider, and this will probably make audiophiles cringe, but my studio monitors are sat on top of my hi-fi speakers. Lack of space again. The DAC in my Asus Xonar soundcard is bloody good, quite likely better than the one from Maplin and definitely better than the one in my premium Asus motherboard so I think that would be the best one to stick with. And come to think of it, it cost almost double the price difference between the Marantz 5005 and the 6005 (the one with the DAC) so I'm guessing it may be better quality than the Marantz DAC. Cheers for your comments I think I'm settled on favouring the 5005 and some speaker stands and a bit of a shuffle around of my desk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornats Posted May 20, 2016 Author Share Posted May 20, 2016 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1463769612' post='3053993'] You got me here under false pretences! I want my money back! [/quote] Oh if anyone's wondering what this is about, I accidentally posted just the word "hi-fi" in my original post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Good point. High Fidelity has not yet been satisfactorily replaced by High Definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 (edited) [quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1463787166' post='3054153'] The DAC in my Asus Xonar soundcard is bloody good, quite likely better than the one from Maplin and definitely better than the one in my premium Asus motherboard so I think that would be the best one to stick with. And come to think of it, it cost almost double the price difference between the Marantz 5005 and the 6005 (the one with the DAC) so I'm guessing it may be better quality than the Marantz DAC. [/quote] I doubt there would be much of a difference in DAC quality that you could hear. As far as I can tell DACs fall into to two categories: those that are clearly deficient and those that are decent, with the latter all sounding identical at least to me. I've compared my recorded bass sound for example between stuff recorded at a studio using allegedly premium DACs and what I've done using my sound blaster card at home and can tell no difference whatsoever. As you say, the DAC is probably nowhere close to being the weak point in your sonic chain so long as its any decent one. Edited May 21, 2016 by bassman7755 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 [quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1463771662' post='3054021']Speaking of Skol, he did mention that a set of speaker stands made the world of difference to his setup and mine are currently sat on my desk to maybe the 5005 and a set of stands is the way to go.[/quote] He's not wrong. It's one of the best and cheapest mods you can do. Richer Sounds do a good selection. I bought a pair there years ago for £20-£30 & they were further improved when they suggested I fill them with damp sand. They used to suggest that you bought the height of stand which would bring the speaker tweeter up to your ear level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivansc Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 (edited) Cheapest way to remove coloration from sympathetic vibration? Sorbothane hemispheres. http://www.qtasystems.co.uk/articles/how-to-use-sorbothane-hemispheres.htm Dirt cheap. I was about to spring ££$$£$£$£$£"$ for a pair of Iso stands till I decided to risk eight quid on 16 little hemispheres (about 30mm diameter) to sit between the top of my Ikea (bedside table) 4U racks either side of the mix position and my two pairs of monitors. The difference was amazing. I still have a tiny amount of vibration getting through when I have the monitors up around the linmit for the room, but never when using mix volumes. Try them first. Oh - the rest of the system is a pair of Tannoy NFM6 Mk2s with a 1979 Quad 405 and a pair of Unity Audio The Rock IIs. You could do a lot worse than finding an old Quad. I route signal to mine via an el cheapo monitor controller... Edited May 23, 2016 by ivansc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornats Posted May 23, 2016 Author Share Posted May 23, 2016 Nice! I'll give some of those a go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grenadilla Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 If you ever go back to a regular amp (not digital input) try NAD amps. I have the 50w . There is an 80w for $800 in the States. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mybass Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 Richer Sounds also tout the Onkyo (9010?) and equivalent CD player as top of the list in that £200 price range... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornats Posted January 13, 2018 Author Share Posted January 13, 2018 An update on this. I stuck with my Rotel until recently when the problems started getting worse and more frequent. I've finally retired the amp after 27 years of good service. Well done to Rotel for building a resilient bit of kit! I had lined up the Marantz PM6006 but they were out of stock and Richer Sounds recommend the Cambridge Audio Topaz SR20 which I bought. Installed it today and it's lovely. Sounds better than my Rotel but doesn't have a different sound signature. It just sounds better with more separation of instruments and a much better soundstage on it. I'm really happy with it Interestingly, to continue the brief conversation about DACs from above, the CA has a Wolfson DAC in it (and an optical in) whilst my Asus Xonar Essence soundcard has a Burr Brown DAC. Both are highly regarded from what I can tell. So, I did a bit of A/B testing and found that using the optical out and the DAC in the CA it gave a more digital, clinical but sharper sound whereas using the Burr Brown int he Xonar and going into the amp via RCA leads had a smoother slightly warmer sound with nicer (slightly rounded) highs. So I'm going with the Burr Brown and RCA connection. I hadn't actually expected to hear any difference whatsoever but it's there if you have the ears and interest to look for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horizontalste Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 I think you made a good choice with the Cambridge, I use a "One" downstairs for everything from TV to Spotify & I'm considering their Network Player for upstairs. In terms of reliability my "One" replaced an A5 that I'd had for 18 years & our son still uses it in his bedroom. My experience with Cambridge has been nothing but positive. I'm also a big fan of stands, get the spikes if they're an option & drop small blobs of bluetac between the speakers & stands then enjoy your eargasm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowieBass Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 That's quite an increase in amplifier wattage @Mornats - that CA Audio Topaz SR20 puts out 100W per channel! The Rotel puts out 30W and these days in my semi-detached house I rarely get the volume past the 9 o'clock position on mine... yes it's still going strong! I've read that there are subtle differences between DACs and that can be as much about the implementation via the associated circuitry as the individual chip itself. My inexpensive Neet AirStream uses a Wolfson DAC and though I've nothing else to compare it with, I'm very happy with how it deals with 320kbps mp3s. I replaced my Mission speakers with some KEF Q100 standmounts (absolute bargain at half-price, £199, as they were about to be replaced by the newer Q150). I'm now a massive fan of KEF and their coaxial Uni-Q drivers (they look great on my stands) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornats Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 Yeah, it's quite an increase in output power but I rarely got my old amp past 2 on the dial in my flat. This one copes with these lowish volumes really well. It's brilliantly clear. Kinda tempted to take my Tannoy E11s into Richer Sounds and a/b them against some new speakers now. The only thing stopping me is that I'm very attached to them. I've had them for 27 years too and they used to be owned by a Tannoy rep who took them apart, bi-wired them then sealed them. So they're a one-off. Still tempted to see what I may be missing though. If I move out of my flat I'm going to reassess my hi-fi placement and maybe have it more central in a living room with speakers on proper stands. In an ideal world I'd have a nice music room like Skol's too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowieBass Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 If you get chance have a listen to the KEF Q150 - I've read they're even better than the Q100 (though I'm glad I bought these because they have a front-facing port which makes for easier placement). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornats Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 They'd have to be something special to make me give up my Tannoys but I'll put them on my (future) to-listen list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, HowieBass said: That's quite an increase in amplifier wattage @Mornats - that CA Audio Topaz SR20 puts out 100W per channel! The Rotel puts out 30W and these days in my semi-detached house I rarely get the volume past the 9 o'clock position on mine... yes it's still going strong! I've read that there are subtle differences between DACs and that can be as much about the implementation via the associated circuitry as the individual chip itself. My inexpensive Neet AirStream uses a Wolfson DAC and though I've nothing else to compare it with, I'm very happy with how it deals with 320kbps mp3s. I replaced my Mission speakers with some KEF Q100 standmounts (absolute bargain at half-price, £199, as they were about to be replaced by the newer Q150). I'm now a massive fan of KEF and their coaxial Uni-Q drivers (they look great on my stands) I have 2 KEF Q300s at the rear positions of my surround rig. They are indeed superb. They're compact because of the concentric design but they fill the room with well defined sound. If I hadn't already got a pair of 30 y/o Heco Superiors at the front they'd be the next choice. I don't like how they look without the grills. It doesn't matter though, the grill cloth is tidy and understated. These days I treat my living room gear like Victorians treated their children only in reverse. They are to be heard and not seen. OP; I run these off of a Denon AVR-X3000. I think it was stated to be capable of about 100w per. It starts to get uncomfortable in the living room above 60 percent for strong clean signals but sometimes it's nice to have the headroom and at 80 percent it's still in no danger of breaking into a sweat. Happy hunting. Edited January 19, 2018 by SpondonBassed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowieBass Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 No chance that you'll ever find yourself lusting after a KEF Blade then @SpondonBassed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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