Mykesbass Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 [quote name='ras52' timestamp='1464441310' post='3059489'] That looks nothing like an owl! [/quote] T'wit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 [quote name='ras52' timestamp='1464441310' post='3059489'] That looks nothing like an owl! [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 (edited) [quote name='Meddle' timestamp='1464439506' post='3059474'] The Chinese manufacturers are not building with the intent to make a high quality instrument. They are simply trying to deceive the end buyer, by presenting a surprisingly cheaper alternative. There is no incentive for them to build a better product, unlike the Lawsuit manufacturers of the '70s. [/quote] The lawsuit manufacturers of the 70s were not putting fake logos on their instruments (although unscrupulous owners may subsequently have done so) - they were making v good copies at a time when the real thing was possibly not even as good. At a lower price - they had taken over the motor cycle industry, make a big inroad into the car industry and several others by making what people wanted, at a consistent level of quality and reliability at a reasonable cost, something which US and UK builders had either forgotten how to or couldn't be asked to make - or maybe their idea of quality was significantly wide of the mark. The Chinese will get there before too long. At the moment some of the fakes are laughable (did anyone see the misshapen bmw mini they showed on Top Gear - hilarious). The business of incorrectly labelled fakes is pure deception when it comes to selling in the market. If I bought a bass or a car or anything else that was a fake unknowingly I would be furious as I would have been deceived into parting with money for something I hadn't got. And someone would have made a profit by deception which, last time I looked, was a criminal offence. Incorrectly labelled fakes for personal use...... not entirely sure what that's all about. Have some posts disappeared from this thread? Fake Rickenbackers and Musicman instruments are less common partially because the company owners and ethos appears to actually value their customers and by protecting them from fakes, protects the company's interest as well. You get the distinct feeling Fender couldn't give a toss!! Edited May 28, 2016 by drTStingray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbayne Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 Just to wind the OP up. [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fender-Late-60s-70s-Style-Guitar-Headstock-Decal-Waterslide-Professional-/141988876275?hash=item210f324ff3:g:bLQAAOSwGYVXBZsu"]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fender-Late-60s-70s-Style-Guitar-Headstock-Decal-Waterslide-Professional-/141988876275?hash=item210f324ff3:g:bLQAAOSwGYVXBZsu[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 [quote name='Hobbayne' timestamp='1464456006' post='3059628'] Just to wind the OP up. [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fender-Late-60s-70s-Style-Guitar-Headstock-Decal-Waterslide-Professional-/141988876275?hash=item210f324ff3:g:bLQAAOSwGYVXBZsu"]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fender-Late-60s-70s-Style-Guitar-Headstock-Decal-Waterslide-Professional-/141988876275?hash=item210f324ff3:g:bLQAAOSwGYVXBZsu[/url] [/quote] Ok if you're renovating something.... I read somewhere there are more Lotus Cortinas in existence than were actually built (by the manfacturer). It's a shame the availability of items such as these is as likely to lead to deception by making/selling fakes as to enable renovation of original items Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painy Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 How does the Trigger's broom scenario fit here? Various bits of a bass get replaced over time until no original parts are left. How far through that process is it okay to continue to call the bass a Fender and how do you decide where to set that boundary? Is it the body and neck that define the bass as a fender? Just the neck? Just the body? Does one original Fender Pickguard screw make it a Fender (clearly not but you get my point)? To use the car analogy I'll bet anyone on here who ever bought a second hand car will quite possibly have bought it with at least one replacement pattern part on there somewhere. How many would it take for you to feel you hadn't bought a genuine Ford/Vauxhall/Perodua or whatever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12stringbassist Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 [quote name='Roger2611' timestamp='1464338155' post='3058508'] A couple of sweeping generalizations there! I have a couple of home built Precision's with Fender logo's applied, I have absolutely no "penis envy" to own a real Fender, I already own too many of them, yet choose to gig with the basses I have built myself...why apply the logo, purely aesthetically, it completes the look of the bass, I would never sell the bass as a Fender and as other have already said, it is not difficult to spot that it is not a "real" Fender.[/quote] If you put a Fender logo on a non-Fender bass to 'complete the look', that is to decieve people. Maybe not for a sale. [quote name='Roger2611'] I am not trying to fool anyone with the logo, especially me, I have a Mike Dirnt Squier Precision, totally rebuilt, all replacement parts, custom colour, Fender logo applied again however it was such a good bass originally that I have happily left the "Crafted in China" logo and serial number on the back of the neck, it is lacquered in and could not now be removed without a total refinish of the neck, so it is there for life now. Most people that have looked at the bass simply cannot believe it was a budget instrument! So again not trying to fool anyone.[/quote] Fender logo applied to a non-Fender instrument. Not trying to fool anyone? [quote name='Roger2611'] Most, but not all obviously! Of the copy Rickenbacker's out there are, to me, hugely inferior to the real deal, the Rockinbetter clone is about half as big again as the real deal, I had a couple and got rid because they felt so cumbersome, but it sparked enough interest for me to go and play the real thing, yes, I was hugely impressed with them to the point that I am probably going to buy one...today...yes really![/quote] Rockinbetter's are awful. You'll enjoy a Ric. [quote name='Roger2611'] I do believe that the copy basses create a desire to own the real thing, I think Fender know that and that is why they are not so protective of their trademarks (and I guess the sheer amount of clones out there would make any effort at protection rather futile now) I do think Rickenbacker are wrong in their aggressive pursuit of copy instruments for the same reasons given above, however, you cannot argue that a Rickenbacker bass has better residual values than the majority of Fender basses have. [/quote] Maybe they do create a desire to own the real thing, but mainly they just steal a piece of the market from the real thing. If you were the owner of said copyrighted designs, you would blow your top if people just started putting copies of your design out there. Saying it's ok is an excuse for saying 'I don't care about the copyright owner' (and fair enough, they may not care about you, but is it morally right to re-badge a copy instrument and pass it off as the real thing? Not really. You have a right to your opinion and I respect that right, but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 [quote name='12stringbassist' timestamp='1464472623' post='3059749']... they just steal a piece of the market from the real thing.... [/quote] This is not necessarily true. Those buying copies (marked Fender or not...) may well not be able to afford the 'real thing', or have any number of reasons for preferring another source (Lighter..? Different colour..? 'Better' sounding..?). The sale of a copy is not, every time, a lost sale of a Fender. Sometimes, even, it can lead to a later sale of the 'real' thing. Stuff is rarely entirely black or white. Disclaimer: I'm not an believer in 'intellectual property', in any case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painy Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 (edited) [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1464473822' post='3059759'] This is not necessarily true. Those buying copies (marked Fender or not...) may well not be able to afford the 'real thing', or have any number of reasons for preferring another source (Lighter..? Different colour..? 'Better' sounding..?). The sale of a copy is not, every time, a lost sale of a Fender. [/quote] The only 'genuine' Fender equivalent of my Squier (being a 5 string precision) currently available is the USA standard which costs more than 5 times the amount new and does not come in sunburst/maple which is my preferred combination. I also prefer the more golden sunburst color of my Squier to the more tobacco colored sunburst on the USA P5. Incidentally my Squier actually came with a small Fender logo on the back of the headstock where it states "Designed and backed by Fender". I just enlarged it and moved it to the other side so it's now 'fronted by Fender' too Edited May 28, 2016 by Painy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 (edited) Just another thought here: Imagine for a moment that you were the owner of the company who made a Fender-like range of basses. Maybe you are John Shucker, for example (sorry John, your basses are better than Fender I'm sure). One night you go to a gig and see a bass You made there on stage. You're thrilled at the tone, the sublime sound, the colour the finishing and how it looks, except you notice something changed.. The owner has taken your name off the head and it's now advertising Fender! All YOUR work is now being used to make the biggest competitor look good! Even if the original supplier was Gear4Music or Rockburn surely credit should be given to the true maker? This still being so even if you have changed the bridge and pups: the style is,still theirs. Edited May 29, 2016 by Grangur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlungerModerno Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 [quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1464306104' post='3058400'] I'll just leave this here. [/quote] That's a thing of beauty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 (edited) [quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1464500481' post='3059821'] Imagine for a moment that you were the owner of the company who made a Fender-like range of basses. Maybe you are John Shuker, for example (sorry John, your basses are better than Fender I'm sure). One night you go to a gig and see a bass You made there on stage. You're thrilled at the tone, the sublime sound, the colour the finishing and how it looks, except you notice something changed.. The owner has taken your name off the head and it's now advertising Fender! All YOUR work is now being used to make the biggest competitor look good! Even if the original supplier was Gear4Music or Rockburn surely credit should be given to the true maker? [/quote] Personally I wouldn't change a Shuker logo (I think it has more cachet than the F-decal and anyway Shukers don't have the appropriate headstock shape, so it's moot), but if I were J. Shuker at a gig looking at my work with a Fender logo on it I might be a bit bemused, but in the end the bass is the property of its owner and therefore is theirs to do with as they please. Credit has already been given to Shuker in the form of a payment in return for the bass. Edited May 29, 2016 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1464473822' post='3059759'] Disclaimer: I'm not an believer in 'intellectual property', in any case. [/quote] Please be aware that IP includes all forms of design, art and development. So this includes music, art, software any designed products etc. An interesting viewpoint for a musician and software developer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 [quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1464511572' post='3059894'] Please be aware that IP includes all forms of design, art and development. So this includes music, art, software any designed products etc. An interesting viewpoint for a musician and software developer. [/quote] Fully aware, but with a different (broader..?) approach to what constitutes 'work to be paid for'. Not a current view, I'll admit; it has already been subject of BC discussion, so needn't be repeated here. 'Interesting'..? That's doubtful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1464516118' post='3059957'] 'Interesting'..? That's doubtful. [/quote] I thought it was fascinating - initial reaction was to find it abhorrent, but after some reflection it started to make sense. Still not sure if I'll ever agree with it, but that's way too much of a thread de-rail! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 I think people who are irritated by this should maybe read a book or go for a walk instead :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 [quote name='Kex' timestamp='1464259537' post='3057944'] I am not necessarily talking about this website but I have seen on various forums adverts for (usually) DIY or cheap looky-likey basses that someone has applied a Fender transfer to the headstock. I find it annoying, it devalues the brand and would have thought it was at best legally dubious. OK so the seller may be 'honest' to admit whats been done, but who is to say what the next owner will do. I actually have a friend who bought a Jazz bass with what is quite a well applied Fender logo, I knew the second i played it that it was not right, but he has had it for a few years and i did not have the heart to tell him. I know Alembic will not even post a replacement logo even if you have bought a bass direct from them (and they record every sale etc) you have to return the instrument to them to have it replaced - a real pain in the bum BUT I can see why they do it. Yet I often see Fender transfers for sale, even on music supplies web sites, really do not understand why Fender allow it. Rant over [/quote] not as much as eejuts who dont look after their instruments then try and pass it off as 'cool mojo relicing' first against the wall when i rule the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 Interesting thought - people don't seem to put Fender decals on Sadowski basses - so presumably the whole process of Fender decals on replicas is a perceived financial thingy?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 (edited) [quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1464552206' post='3060298'] not as much as eejuts who dont look after their instruments then try and pass it off as 'cool mojo relicing' first against the wall when i rule the world [/quote] Please do help me; what is "cool mojo relicing" if it's not evidence of someone not looking after their bass? After all isn't "cool mojo relicing" faking what happens if you don't look after your bass? Edit: I once saw a "Roadworn" bass sold as "in mint condition, no dings or scrapes". Isn't that missing the point? I creased up. Edited May 29, 2016 by Grangur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gelfin Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 [quote name='ras52' timestamp='1464441310' post='3059489'] That looks nothing like an owl! [/quote] Ha now I've edited it so that people won't understand your comment. Ah well back to " Name that tune" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ras52 Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 [quote name='gelfin' timestamp='1464557306' post='3060357'] Ha now I've edited it so that people won't understand your comment. Ah well back to " Name that tune" [/quote] Unless you also change the picture to something that looks like an owl, my comment still makes sense! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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