Heft - from heavy amp, or from lightweight amp & pedals?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1465412952' post='3068068']
I wonder if this interpretation of the H-word might be that subtle form of distortion that valve amps do well, as do certain speakers? I mean the sort that adds some extra harmonics to the sound (so adding low mids on top of your lows) but stops well short of sounding gritty or dirty and would still be thought of as a clean sound in any musical context.
[/quote]

As Zappa said, talking about music is like dancing about architecture. And therein lies the problem...

I consider 'heft' to be related to the uncompressed and unsagging reproduction of low frequencies. Basically the sort of thing good subwoofers do really well and that poor PA systems and weedy bass amps and cabs struggle with. It's also something that serious solidstate power and high excursion neo drivers are better at than valve amps and old school drivers (unless you use a BIG rig).

However, there are definitely bassists who consider 'heft' to be related to the compression and distortion added by valve amps and certain cabs, which thickens a bass sound. This mid-bass to lower-midrange thickness is also sometimes described as punch, though I'd tend to call the transient character thump, with punch being higher up in the midrange.

When you've had as many email and phone discussions about bass tone as me you get quite good at reading between the lines of what bassists mean when they're talking about sound. But if that isn't your job then it makes it quite hard to discuss the minutiae of tone without an awful lot of misunderstanding going on!

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1465465084' post='3068416']

I consider 'heft' to be related to the uncompressed and unsagging reproduction of low frequencies. Basically the sort of thing good subwoofers do really well and that poor PA systems and weedy bass amps and cabs struggle with. It's also something that serious solidstate power and high excursion neo drivers are better at than valve amps and old school drivers (unless you use a BIG rig).

However, there are definitely bassists who consider 'heft' to be related to the compression and distortion added by valve amps and certain cabs, which thickens a bass sound. This mid-bass to lower-midrange thickness is also sometimes described as punch, though I'd tend to call the transient character thump, with punch being higher up in the midrange.
[/quote]

That sums it up well, there seem to be these two quite disparate properties being referred to as "heft". I'm a big fan of the second of those qualities (whatever you want to call it), as it really seems to create a sound that's clearly audible, satisfying to play, and finds a space in the mix easily.

[Passinwind]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1465465084' post='3068416']
As Zappa said, talking about music is like dancing about architecture. And therein lies the problem...

I consider 'heft' to be related to the uncompressed and unsagging reproduction of low frequencies. Basically the sort of thing good subwoofers do really well and that poor PA systems and weedy bass amps and cabs struggle with. It's also something that serious solidstate power and high excursion neo drivers are better at than valve amps and old school drivers (unless you use a BIG rig).

However, there are definitely bassists who consider 'heft' to be related to the compression and distortion added by valve amps and certain cabs, which thickens a bass sound. This mid-bass to lower-midrange thickness is also sometimes described as punch, though I'd tend to call the transient character thump, with punch being higher up in the midrange.

When you've had as many email and phone discussions about bass tone as me you get quite good at reading between the lines of what bassists mean when they're talking about sound. But if that isn't your job then it makes it quite hard to discuss the minutiae of tone without an awful lot of misunderstanding going on!
[/quote]

Yep, as a very longtime amp modder for other people I have had to learn to speak Jive a million different ways. "Heft" is a word that never came up until very recently, but regardless of my grumpy old man tendency to want to brush it off as meaningless, if someone wants to pay for it, I wouldn't mind taking their money.

[M@23]

Well, I played the Isle of Wight Festival today. I used the supplied rig, which was an Ampeg 8x10 and, I believe, a 300 watt all valve SVT head. OMG... HEFT! I didn't love the sound. But, it punched you so hard in the back. You could just feel it.

We had a 15k PA as well, which was amazing. But it felt like the fridge would have filled the whole venue!

Edited June 12, 2016 by M@23

[cheddatom]

Isn't it just volume? If I'm understanding the term correctly, I tend to get that experience when I'm turned up arguably too loud, through whichever rig I'm using. I mean, anything will "punch you in the chest" if you turn it up loud enough (and if it goes loud enough)

[spectoremg]

[quote name='M@23' timestamp='1465755944' post='3070779']
Well, I played the Isle of Wight Festival today. I used the supplied rig, which was an Ampeg 8x10 and, I believe, a 300 watt all valve SVT head. OMG... HEFT! I didn't love the sound. But, it punched you so hard in the back. You could just feel it.

We had a 15k PA as well, which was amazing. But it felt like the fridge would have filled the whole venue!
[/quote]So is punch, punch, or is punch, heft?

Edited June 18, 2016 by spectoremg

[M@23]

[quote name='spectoremg' timestamp='1466201962' post='3074176']
So punch, punch, or is punch, heft?
[/quote]

It was your standard sort of hefty punch, really. Punch is heft when punch is hefty.

[Guest gazzatriumph]

Ask Judy

[zawinul]

I think you need this

[JTUK]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1465820187' post='3071202']
Isn't it just volume? If I'm understanding the term correctly, I tend to get that experience when I'm turned up arguably too loud, through whichever rig I'm using. I mean, anything will "punch you in the chest" if you turn it up loud enough (and if it goes loud enough)
[/quote]

No... it is exactly NOT just volume.
The SVT experience will put that into perspective but until you'd tried it ..people wont quite get it.

Tone hammers go loud but they definitely haven't got it, for instance.... but it is pointless arguing if people think they do their job.
When you know, you know.

BTW... an SVT isn't about a great sound as they can be tonally lacking, IMO, but they set a standard for bass rig monitors for what they do on a stage.
No one says, crap, I've got to play thru an SVT/810 tho..

Edited June 19, 2016 by JTUK

[M@23]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1466347857' post='3075129']


No... it is exactly NOT just volume.
The SVT experience will put that into perspective but until you'd tried it ..people wont quite get it.

Tone hammers go loud but they definitely haven't got it, for instance.... but it is pointless arguing if people think they do their job.
When you know, you know.

BTW... an SVT isn't about a great sound as they can be tonally lacking, IMO, but they set a standard for bass rig monitors for what they do on a stage.
No one says, crap, I've got to play thru an SVT/810 tho..
[/quote]

Yep, I'd agree. I didn't love the sound at all. It was gnarly and driven, not what I'd go for at all. But, we had a 15k rig. This was just my monitor. The power was astonishing. Wherever I was on stage, and it was a big stage, you could just feel it. Like you say, it is certainly not just volume. It's hard to find the adjectives, I've played some lovely bass rigs. Many I prefer the sound of, but none match the 8x10 and SVT for 'heft'; and I can't wait to use that rig again sometime.

[Lozz196]

And in the mix they sound pretty good too - the gnarl/drive seems to disappear (unless really pushing the gain) and just ends up with a nice, present forceful bass sound. And as said, one that just hits you with a slam. Fully agree with JTs point about the Tonehammers too - I love mine, and they`re pretty near especially when paired with the Sansamp, but when you play through something like an SVT, or even an Ashdown ABM, well you feel the difference.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1466434297' post='3075771']
And in the mix they sound pretty good too - the gnarl/drive seems to disappear (unless really pushing the gain) and just ends up with a nice, present forceful bass sound. And as said, one that just hits you with a slam. Fully agree with JTs point about the Tonehammers too - I love mine, and they`re pretty near especially when paired with the Sansamp, but when you play through something like an SVT, or even an Ashdown ABM, well you feel the difference.
[/quote]

Yep, only reason I sold the TH500 was because of headroom which I need more than most.
The tone was fine and I was understanding about its 'limitations'..
Everyone liked it...but I have a louder variant which also suited the lightweight need.

[Ant]

ive always understood "heft" as more of a weighty term, like the weight/punch of a note if we're talking about tone

or a big hefty amp if it weighs a ton/is massive etc

[Beedster]

Ha ha, this thread will still be going when the dinosaurs have returned

[spectoremg]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1467364768' post='3083080']
Ha ha, this thread will still be going when the dinosaurs have returned
[/quote]They were definitely hefty.

[wateroftyne]

Unlike the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park, which looked and sounded like dinosaurs, but still seemed a little bit lightweight. Still, given that it was difficult sourcing real dinosaurs, they were a decent compromise.

[Muzz]

Class D dinosaurs?

[Passinwind]

[quote name='spectoremg' timestamp='1467385294' post='3083337']
They were definitely hefty.
[/quote]

Not the digital CGI ones. Analog dinosaurs were always more organic.

[Guest bassman7755]

Ray Harryhausen's dinosaurs had more heft.