reverse headstock and string sound

[alyctes]

Does having a longer string length above the nut affect the sound of the string significantly?

If it does, would reverse-headstock 34" B-strings sound less "flabby" than those on "conventional" Fender-style headstocks?

Anyone experimented?

[Twincam]

It's very doubtful it would, as it really ends at the break point (the nut) and if wrapped correctly around the post there's a lot of tension holding the strings down. And so if reversed the you have the string tree for the pressure which will no doubt be more or less the same.
The only way the extra length would make a difference is if the break point wasn't getting enough pressure to make a good contact, the extra string length would make no difference to a short string one given the pressure on the nut or even the bridge is the same.
If not string tension is always the same given the tuning no matter how one fixes the end because of the nut and saddle are the contact points. If you altered that after the break point then the string would need less or more tuning tension to get it at the correct pitch so in the end it works out the same.

It pretty much explains why there is no difference between string through and a well designed top loading bridge as well, poor designed or broken top load bridges can see a slight improvement.
Because on a tuned string the tension is that high all of the downward force is applied to the break point the nut and the bridge saddle.

Else we would have string through tuners that run through the end of the head.

Maybe a high tech analyses with some very sophisticated equipment would note the difference but our ears and fingers won't.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Twincam

[Deedee]

Interesting question. I was told that the angle of the head I.e. the angle it leans back away from the nut certainly makes a difference to the tension, so perhaps a reverse headstock would do the same.

I've certainly noticed differences between basses even when they are all 34" scale. I use exactly the same strings on my Precision as on my Stingray, but they certainly feel 'slacker' on the Stingray. In fact I'm just in the process of ordering the next gauge up for the Stingray to try and get them feeling more alike.

[NancyJohnson]

We have been here before. I can't remember the name of the bass player, but it was an American guy, played for someone like Third Eye Blind, had Fender custom shop instruments with left-handed/reverse headstocks, citing the longer string length (albeit on the E-string) resulted in better/more agreeable tension across the set. I think the consensus was the guy was speaking out of his bottom.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Deedee' timestamp='1464613199' post='3060772']
... I was told that the angle of the head I.e. the angle it leans back away from the nut certainly makes a difference to the tension, so perhaps a reverse headstock would do the same.

I've certainly noticed differences between basses even when they are all 34" scale. I use exactly the same strings on my Precision as on my Stingray, but they certainly feel 'slacker' on the Stingray. In fact I'm just in the process of ordering the next gauge up for the Stingray to try and get them feeling more alike.
[/quote]

Tension, by definition, is only affected by three things:

1 Vibrating length of the string (from bridge saddle to nut).
2 Mass per unit length of the string.
3 Pitch to which the string is tuned.

Nothing beyond the bridge or beyond the nut can have any effect on tension.

However, compliance or elasticity - i.e. how the string 'feels' - may be affected by other factors such as round-core or hex-core construction, steeper break angles, length of string beyond nut or bridge. Meanwhile the tension must remain the same.

[url="http://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm"]http://www.liutaiomo.../perception.htm[/url]

Edited May 30, 2016 by EssentialTension

[Deedee]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1464620384' post='3060850']
However, compliance or elasticity - i.e. how the string 'feels' - may be affected by other factors such as round-core or hex-core construction, steeper break angles, length of string beyond nut or bridge. Meanwhile the tension must remain the same.

[url="http://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm"]http://www.liutaiomo.../perception.htm[/url]
[/quote]

Ok, I say 'slacker', you say 'compliance or elasticity'. Either way, they make the same strings feel different.

[ikay]

[quote name='alyctes' timestamp='1464605070' post='3060664']
... would reverse-headstock 34" B-strings sound less "flabby" than those on "conventional" Fender-style headstocks?
[/quote]
IME longer string lengths beyond the nut/bridge and shallower break angles usually result in a string feeling more 'compliant', so I'd expect the B on a reverse 5-inline headstock to feel more flabby rather than less flabby. Depending on what string tree configuration you have. With a full width string retainer (eg. like a Lakland 5) the break angle will be the same so you may not notice much difference either way.

Edited May 30, 2016 by ikay

[Beedster]

Reverse headstock makes no difference to string sound but does make finding strings to fit at short notice a real PITA

[Graham]

[quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1464616148' post='3060799']
We have been here before. I can't remember the name of the bass player, but it was an American guy, played for someone like Third Eye Blind, had Fender custom shop instruments with left-handed/reverse headstocks, citing the longer string length (albeit on the E-string) resulted in better/more agreeable tension across the set. I think the consensus was the guy was speaking out of his bottom.
[/quote]

Jimmy Eat World I believe

[NancyJohnson]

[quote name='Graham' timestamp='1464627201' post='3060957']
Jimmy Eat World I believe
[/quote]

Good call. All these turn of the century US beige bands. Can't tell them apart!

[Graham]

[quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1464638429' post='3061078']


Good call. All these turn of the century US beige bands. Can't tell them apart!
[/quote]

Funny thing is, I used to absolutely love Jimmy's Bleed American record, but I've never listened to anything else by them.

So I'm now listening to the follow up album Futures on Spotify and........it really is a bit dull

[Sammers]

Fodera offer an option to have an extended B string headstock, I'm guessing for the reasoning in the OP.

My Lull also has the option to string through the body on only the B string to increase tension or something, I've tried both ways and can't feel any difference (other than the B lost sustain and became a PITA to change when strung through body, to my ear anyway).

I can't imagine a reverse headstock would make too much difference either, but I'd be interested to hear a comparison!

[alyctes]

Thanks folks. I confess my interest is mostly theoretical; I just saw a picture and wondered what if.
I do take Beedster's comment about finding strings in a hurry on board - thank you.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1464616148' post='3060799']
We have been here before. I can't remember the name of the bass player, but it was an American guy, played for someone like Third Eye Blind, had Fender custom shop instruments with left-handed/reverse headstocks, citing the longer string length (albeit on the E-string) resulted in better/more agreeable tension across the set. I think the consensus was the guy was speaking out of his bottom.
[/quote]
I wonder how this would affect a Hipshot extender, as there would be more of the string before the nut, to detune?

[tauzero]

[quote name='Deedee' timestamp='1464613199' post='3060772']
Interesting question. I was told that the angle of the head I.e. the angle it leans back away from the nut certainly makes a difference to the tension, so perhaps a reverse headstock would do the same.
[/quote]

The angle of the headstock will make absolutely no difference whatsoever to the tension on the string.

Now, on to compliance. The speaking length of a string is (on a 34" scale bass) 865mm. On the bass which I happen to have to hand, the first tuner is 40mm from the nut, the next 40mm further, and the third another 40mm (it's 3/2 and also 35" scale but that's not really that important). So what we're looking at is how much we have to stretch the string by, and the variation we'd have in tension in order to play a note from one string to another. Measuring my plucking action, I deflect the string by up to 5mm. I suppose I should really divide this into two right-angled triangles but I couldn't be bothered, I'll approximate by finding the hypotenuse on a triangle with sides 865 and 5. And it's 865.01 mm. So the increase in string length is .01mm. Now, how does the tension change compare? Well, one string is being increased in length by .01mm in 945mm (40mm to the first tuner, 40mm from bridge saddle to tailpiece), and the other by .01mm in 1025mm (as for the first string plus another two tuners worth at 40mm/tuner). So we can eliminate the .01mm which is common to both and see that the ratio of tensions will be 1025:945 or 1.085:1.

So one string will be 8.5% harder to deflect than the other. Mind you, you'll find at least that amount of variation in string tensions with string sets that aren't balanced tension (ie. almost all of them).

[BigRedX]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1464765049' post='3062213']
So one string will be 8.5% harder to deflect than the other. Mind you, you'll find at least that amount of variation in string tensions with string sets that aren't balanced tension (ie. almost all of them).
[/quote]

And you'll find almost that much variation in the balanced tension sets. That's why they are described as "balanced tension" and not "equal tension".

[Beedster]

[quote name='alyctes' timestamp='1464733511' post='3062099']
I do take Beedster's comment about finding strings in a hurry on board - thank you.
[/quote]

Indeed, I have about 20 sets of strings here of all brads and types, and not one of them had an E-string that reached the tuner on my old Dusty Hill. Rather annoying

[AustinArto]

I've been meaning to assemble a reversed-headstock Jazz and never once considered that a standard E might not fit, so this thread has been very valuable, thank you.

[Beedster]

[quote name='AustinArto' timestamp='1464819344' post='3062966']
I've been meaning to assemble a reversed-headstock Jazz and never once considered that a standard E might not fit, so this thread has been very valuable, thank you.
[/quote]

Neither did I