TommyK Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) So this may have been covered before but i cant find it if it has.... I'm depping for a local band who do this track. If you don't know it...:[url="https://youtu.be/z9D71pQaTnc"]https://youtu.be/z9D71pQaTnc[/url] The galloping/triplet verse bit at the start.... 0:49 - 2:40.... For the musically ignoramus (i.e me) What is going on here? I thought it was in E minor to start with but it seems to change key almost at the end of each measure? ... or is it just starting in a different place? Or am i just being thick? I've learnt it by ear and written it down which is fine, i've played it live with them 3 times fine and the 4th time ballsed it up cos i got lost with my reading.... oops... (Also they play tuned down half a step which doesn't help me at all when i get lost!) I cant seem to memorise it, if i knew what was going on it might help me perhaps? Thanks kindly TK Edited June 6, 2016 by TommyK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgie Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Just transcribing this now after reading this post. To me it looks like it does indeed change key. Will upload when I've finished. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgie Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 (edited) So it looks to me like it's pretty much the exact same progression, it just changes key so if you learn the fingering, you should be fine, just move it up and down the neck! Bear in mind I'm not too sure of the theory behind this myself, and while I think the chords are right, I'm not sure I've put it in the right key. To me it looks like it goes from Em to Cm then to Abm. Can anyone confirm whether it should be Abm or G#m? It was the chord of G in the Abm section that was confusing me, so I decided to put it in Abm. [attachment=220977:Knights of Cydonia - Bass.pdf] Edited June 7, 2016 by Higgie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joebass Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 (edited) [quote name='Higgie' timestamp='1465317109' post='3067083'] So it looks to me like it's pretty much the exact same progression, it just changes key so if you learn the fingering, you should be fine, just move it up and down the neck! Bear in mind I'm not too sure of the theory behind this myself, and while I think the chords are right, I'm not sure I've put it in the right key. To me it looks like it goes from Em to Cm then to Abm. Can anyone confirm whether it should be Abm or G#m? It was the chord of G in the Abm section that was confusing me, so I decided to put it in Abm. [attachment=220977:Knights of Cydonia - Bass.pdf] [/quote] Yep, begins in Em, modulates to Cm, Abm(G#m) and finally back to Em. I spotted a Bm at bar 15 which should be major. I would analyse it like this: [attachment=220978:KNIGHTS OF CYDONIA.pdf] ~Joe Edited June 7, 2016 by Joebass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgie Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Ah! Yeah didn't realise I'd put that as Bm. D'oh! Is there any general consensus as to whether it's Abm or G#m? Does it make a difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I transcribed this a few years ago and can confirm it cycles backwards in jumps of two tones: Em > Cm > Abm* >Em. It reminds me of a Shadows number! *As a bass/guitar player, I find it much easier yo read in G#m than Abm! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazBeen Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Hi TommyK, how's the kids? G#m I believe, but heck as long as we understand what it is right? I play this song with my tribute, looks about right as described above. Very "old school" progression really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joebass Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 [quote name='Higgie' timestamp='1465321399' post='3067139'] Ah! Yeah didn't realise I'd put that as Bm. D'oh! Is there any general consensus as to whether it's Abm or G#m? Does it make a difference? [/quote] They're just enharmonic equivalents, no right or wrong but most people find it easier to read 5 sharps than 7 flats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joebass Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 [quote name='Higgie' timestamp='1465317109' post='3067083'] G in the Abm section that was confusing me, so I decided to put it in Abm. [attachment=220977:Knights of Cydonia - Bass.pdf] [/quote] The G chord is part of a modulation and is derived from E minor. On your transcription, you should be changing to E minor at bar 59. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgie Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I did think G#m would be easier to read, and would also avoid all the Cb and Fb nonsense, but seeing as it had gone to Cm I thought I'd keep things flat instead of jumping between #s and bs! If there's no actual "Correct" answer then fair play. So in my transcription I'm changing key too late... Is that just because the chord is derived from Em? If that bar was a chord from G#m/Abm would the key change technically be the next bar then? Is it just common practice to change key as soon as you get to a chord that is not diatonic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joebass Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 (edited) [quote name='Higgie' timestamp='1465323417' post='3067183'] Is it just common practice to change key as soon as you get to a chord that is not diatonic? [/quote] No, non-diatonic chords are used all the time (Neopolitan, Augmented Sixth etc.). If you respell the Fb and Cb as E and B, you should see a clear progression in Eminor. Here's my brief analysis: The main theme consists of 2 phrases, each phrase is made up of 8 bars. The first (Question) phrase is in E minor, ending with a modulation into Cmin for the next (Answer) phrase. After a short 4 bar interlude, the whole sequence repeats, transposed up a minor 6th/ down a major 3rd. Edited June 7, 2016 by Joebass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joebass Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Next (transposed) sequence: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joebass Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Final part: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazBeen Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgie Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Thanks for your posts they've been very helpful! I'm curious as to why it's a chord of D# in bar 8 of the second page? I get that it is setting up the modulation that will follow, but why wouldn't it be an Eb? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joebass Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 [quote name='Higgie' timestamp='1465330963' post='3067314'] Thanks for your posts they've been very helpful! I'm curious as to why it's a chord of D# in bar 8 of the second page? I get that it is setting up the modulation that will follow, but why wouldn't it be an Eb? [/quote] It's not setting up the modulation, it [i]is [/i]the modulation. The D# has a clear dominant function leading to the G#m, an Eb here would obscure that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgie Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I see, so why doesn't the key signature change 2 bars earlier instead of having the accidentals leading up to it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joebass Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 [quote name='Higgie' timestamp='1465334340' post='3067370'] I see, so why doesn't the key signature change 2 bars earlier instead of having the accidentals leading up to it? [/quote] It's just common practice. It's better to have the new key signature coincide with the double barline/new musical section; it adds visual clarity to the form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgie Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Gotcha. Thanks for your help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 (edited) [quote name='Joebass' timestamp='1465322426' post='3067159'] They're just enharmonic equivalents, no right or wrong but most people find it easier to read 5 sharps than 7 flats. [/quote] True, but if it is doing tertiary modulations, i.e, moving by major third, then the 'spelling' would by Abm rather than G#m, but agree doesn't matter too much. Beethoven did tertiary modulations, so it's not new! Edited June 7, 2016 by zbd1960 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joebass Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 (edited) Good point You would have to change the spelling somewhere, though.[list] [*]Em - Cm = Tertiary [*]Cm - Abm = tertiary [*]Abm - Fbm? [/list] I guess you could change from Abm to G#m going into the new section. Edited June 7, 2016 by Joebass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 Wow!! Brilliant responses! Now it makes more sense Thanks guys...+I'm glad i wasn't the only one on this number!! (Kids are doing great Harry thanks! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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