Do You Really Care?

[ahpook]

"But make no mistakes and switch up my channel -
I'm Buddy Rich when I fly off the handle
What could it be ? It's a mirage...
You're scheming on a thing - that's [b]SABOTAGE ![/b]"

[Beer of the Bass]

I'd walk if an employer tried to talk to me like that, and I have done so before (not in a musical context - it was an Italian restaurant where the proprietor tried to copy Gordon Ramsay's management style, minus his culinary flair). Perhaps there are a few people who get by in that kind of environment, but many will get out at the earliest opportunity.
Contrast this with how Duke Ellington managed his band. Charles Mingus wrote this after being fired; “The charming way he says it, you feel like he’s paying you a compliment. Feeling honored, you shake hands and resign.” IMO Ellington was the better bandleader.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Beer of the Bass

[odysseus]

[quote name='neilp' timestamp='1465371843' post='3067554']
Rich may have been hated, but I bet he had no problem finding a bass player when he needed one...............
[/quote]

Probably true. but I can't help wondering how many top level players passed him over in favour of working with another top level musician who wasn't an *ssh*le.

[DaveFry]

If you train horse with the whip , it becomes servile through fear . - Authority by Intimidation .
If you train a horse by horse whispering methods , talking it;s own language , it wants to serve because you become it's friend . - Authority by Respect .

The respect method tends to give better results .

[lowdown]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1465344909' post='3067474']
Why am I the only one on Buddy's side?

Blue
[/quote]

You are not, Blue.

Having worked for one or two 'over the top' West End Function Band leaders and Conductors in the past, it's just water off a ducks back for me.
You tend to play your arse off with all the other good players in the band, take the money, go away and have a good, good laugh about it all with the other musicians.
Or indeed, record it and have a laugh, along with the rest of the world. You tend not to take it seriously, as I doubt the guys in the OP tape did.
(After all, they mostly kept turning up again for the next show).

Also, there is a history with a couple of those players involved on the OP tape.
It was his band and he thought people were taking the mickey.
He charged a lot of money to perform with his band, it needed to be good ALL the time.
They were not some Dog and Duck Bar Room Band.
There were players who hated him, but, an awful lot liked him and spoke highly of him.

On another note. Some of the guys in his band played with him for years (Steve Marcus twelve years),
who claim the musical experience helped them a lot. It wasn't all bad.

Buddy was also a throw back to the 40's/50's and 60's type band leaders, I suppose he thought he had
some kind of show business image to keep up with. After all, the business of show, was his thing.
Would people get away with that kind of thing today? I doubt it.

There have been plenty of famous Band Leaders/MD's and Conductors over the years, whose horrendous reputations, made Buddy Rich seem like a pussy cat
Of course, it does go a long way with your musicians if you are nice to them. But who wants to hear a pleasant tour band conversation on YouTube?

Edited June 8, 2016 by lowdown

[RhysP]

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1465344926' post='3067475']
If he didn't rate his band then why not just fire them? My admiration for Rich just went down.
[/quote]

Apparently he used to fire his bands all the time, then re-hire them again.

There's an interesting chapter about working with Buddy Rich in Tony Levin's excellent book "Beyond The Bass Clef".

Edited June 8, 2016 by RhysP

[PaulWarning]

bullying is not the way to get the best out of people, you just make the terrified of making a mistake, which will probably lead to them making more mistakes, ( I know, my first job had a bullying boss fortunately he dropped dead with a heart attack) what a thoroughly nasty man, Rich and my old boss

[Funky Dunky]

I understand Buddy's point. Not my style of motivation, but Buddy probably faced that himself at some point and I don't doubt it helped make him the best. He was driven by perfection, and when playing to that standard, perfectly, in an ensemble, and your bandmates let you down, when you trade under your own name and people come to see that perfection, if your bandmates let you down, you'd be mad too.

Whiplash is a fantastic film, and while you hate JK Simmons' character and side with Miles Teller, you see how it spurred him to become great. At that level, a bandleader seeks that reaction. Separate the men from the boys. It's kinda like "If you want it badly enough, you'll make sure you improve. If you cry, if you fold under that pressure, sling your hook and I"ll get someone in who can do it right."

All that mattered to Buddy was the music, and being the best. Hugs won't always get it done. Was it over the top? Yes? Was it needed? I don't know. I'd like to think not. Have I lost any respect for Buddy Rich? Nope. Would I mind being spoken to like that? Definitely!

FWIW, I would've quit

Edited June 8, 2016 by Funky Dunky

[Funky Dunky]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1465383441' post='3067664']

On another note. Some of the guys in his band played with him for years (Steve Marcus twelve years),
who claim the musical experience helped them a lot. It wasn't all bad.


[/quote]

Steve Marcus......just an unreal musician. Terrifyingly good.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Funky Dunky' timestamp='1465385719' post='3067698']
Steve Marcus......just an unreal musician. Terrifyingly good.
[/quote]

Yep, indeed.

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited February 22, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Rich]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1465338612' post='3067428']
I hear no HATE,only passion and respect for the art.
[/quote]
And zero respect for the artISTS.

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited February 22, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[bassjim]

I used to run a band. I had rules and they went something like this: Rehearsals= If you commit any of the following crimes you are paying for the rehearsal. Crimes:
Havn't learnt the material. Late. Non functioning gear. Talking about your personal problems. Not in a fit state to play or communicate.
Gigs:
The following crimes would result in your share of the money being shared with the rest of the band: As above.

The band did a lot of high paid weddings, functions as well as pub gigs and there was a good list of hopefuls that wanted to join, so I had that back up that if you didnt like it ,....there is the door.

I had a good pool deps which also helped to keep every one on it. As a result it was a very very good band. When I stopped running it 4 years after its conception, it fell apart and every one went their separate ways. If I talk to anyone these days from that time they all say the same thing: That was the best band they were ever in.

[chris_b]

Some people are bullies and use shouting at the band as a way of covering up their own insecurities or just psyching themselves up.

It's immature, unpleasant and in most cases unnecessary.

If the guy deserves that kind of treatment then replace him. If it's just a band leader venting recognise it for what it is, meaningless noise. Or you can fight back, but make sure you have another gig lined up. Just in case.

[phil.c60]

Do I Really Care? As far as this clip goes - NO.
If he spoke like that to some of the musicians I know, it would be along time before he was able to play again.

[luckydog]

It's sad, Buddy sure had some personal problems.

That approach is just plain wrong, but maybe the band knew he had problems and put up with it ? Otherwise, fair chance half the band wouldn't have bothered with the second set, or Buddy would have regularly needed surgery to remove a drumstick from his a*se between sets


Displaced anger, maybe he wasn't happy with himself for some reason (not necessarily real or to do with drumming ?), dunno amateur psychology 1/2 hour?

Sad stuff really......

But very useful as an example of how NOT to get the best out of creative talented musicians !

LD

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='luckydog' timestamp='1465389349' post='3067745']
It's sad, Buddy sure had some personal problems.

That approach is just plain wrong, but maybe the band knew he had problems and put up with it ? Otherwise, fair chance half the band wouldn't have bothered with the second set, or Buddy would have regularly needed surgery to remove a drumstick from his a*se between sets


Displaced anger, maybe he wasn't happy with himself for some reason (not necessarily real or to do with drumming ?), dunno amateur psychology 1/2 hour?

Sad stuff really......

[/quote]

Dave Panichi (the bearded trombonist he's ranting at towards the end of the recordings) said that Rich was guaranteed to kick off after seeing his wife, any time his dope ran out or when there were guests on the bus to show off in front of. So yes, it does point at the rants being triggered by issues other than the performance. And Panichi wasn't actually sacked after this altercation - he says that Rich rarely followed through on any of his threats. I wonder if Panichi even shaved in the end?
Although Rich was one hell of a drummer, he does come across as rather a pathetic figure off stage (again, IMO).

Edited June 8, 2016 by Beer of the Bass

[lowdown]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1465390688' post='3067765']
Dave Panichi (the bearded trombonist he's ranting at towards the end of the recordings) said that Rich was guaranteed to kick off after seeing his wife, any time his dope ran out or when there were guests on the bus to show off in front of. So yes, it does point at the rants being triggered by issues other than the performance. And Panichi wasn't actually sacked after this altercation - he says that Rich rarely followed through on any of his threats. I wonder if Panichi even shaved in the end?
[/quote]

Dave Panichi talking about the tapes (towards the bottom of the article).
A good read.
http://jazztimes.com/articles/20010-the-buddy-rich-tapes

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Being the boss isn't the same as being an employee - when you've been responsible for making the hard decisions, paying the wages and having your employees actions reflect and impact directly on your personal reputation, everything has a different perspective because the consequences scale differently.

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1465391808' post='3067776']
Dave Panichi talking about the tapes (towards the bottom of the article).
A good read.
[url="http://jazztimes.com/articles/20010-the-buddy-rich-tapes"]http://jazztimes.com...uddy-rich-tapes[/url]
[/quote]

I think Panichi nails the possible cultural difference to which Blue alluded earlier when he says
"[color=#333333]My own feeling was he couldn’t get away with that s**t with an Australian band. Somebody would’ve popped him."[/color]

[color=#333333]Similarly I can imagine a British group would either send such a bandleader to Coventry, or smack him in the mouth, depending on their average temperament.[/color]

Edited June 8, 2016 by EliasMooseblaster

[luckydog]

The article lowdown cited:

[i]Panichi says in retrospect, “.....(..)... My own feeling was he couldn’t get away with that sh*t with an Australian band. Somebody would’ve popped him......(..) the thing with the threat sh*t is if you threaten somebody once and you don’t do it, then it’s an empty threat ......(..)..... The deal with Buddy was that he was completely psychotic but predictable. And we always knew when he was going to go off"[/i]

Yup, it had to be.

We all know what it can be like to put up with the flipside of prodigious talent just because that talent is so good. Bass players are generally blessed with a coping temperament - just as well sometimes/often !

Perhaps in Buddy's case the problem was displaced anger/aggression, so whatever hit the trigger for it had little to do with what was in the firing line. Beards, were in the firing line for example !!

This is surely a sad way to be and not to admire though. The tour musicians knew for sure.

RIP

LD

[4stringslow]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1465390688' post='3067765']
Although Rich was one hell of a drummer, he does come across as rather a pathetic figure off stage (again, IMO).
[/quote]

Yep, just goes to show that great musicians are not necessarily great people.

Actually, it's the same with any celebrity. We all have our favourites, musicians, actors, sportsmen, etc and there's a tendency to say 'I really like' so and so even though we've rarely met them or know anything about them except what we read about. What we usually mean, of course, is that we really like their music, their playing, their acting roles, their whatever, but it's pretty meaningless to like 'them' unless we happen to actually know them as a friend.

[DaytonaRik]

I care, but not to that extent. Think Lizzy are not professional musicians...we're amateurs having fun and playing some great music to folks to the best of our ability, warts n all. We entertain, we make people happy and get usually get invited back...seems like a job well done to me!

I wince at my own mistakes and laugh WITH, not AT those that the rest of the band make.

[Passinwind]

[quote name='luckydog' timestamp='1465389349' post='3067745']
It's sad, Buddy sure had some personal problems.

That approach is just plain wrong, but maybe the band knew he had problems and put up with it ? Otherwise, fair chance half the band wouldn't have bothered with the second set, or Buddy would have regularly needed surgery to remove a drumstick from his a*se between sets
[/quote]

The bass seat in his band was notoriously short-lived, sometimes even lasting less than an entire set. It'd be interesting to hear someone like Tony Levin's candid take.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Passinwind