Getting decent bass sound through foh pa

[mrtcat]

After a little advice from players / engineers who can advise on getting a good bass sound through the pa.

We played a wedding in a marquee last night with a typical low raised marquee type temporary stage. I really wanted to hire in pa and engineer but the budget wouldn't allow. We used our own rig (2x Rcf 745 active tops and 4x rcf 905 subs). It was just about man enough to give a decent level and nice full sound. It fell to me to do foh mixing which I accepted but was far from ideal really. We were working as a 4 piece with some backing tracks.

Overall I got a really nice monitor mix and the foh levels were nice and it sounded nice and even and full. The only thing I wasn't happy with was the bass sound. On stage it was fine. My rig did it's job well and I was happy there. The sound I got through the pa wasn't quite so good. It seemed a bit hollow and thin. Hard to describe really but not thick and punchy like from my rig.

I used the di (pre eq) on the back of my amp to feed the pa and made adjustment at the mixer (behringer xr18). I have a few pedals that I use which go in front of the preamp on my head.

Would I be better off using a di box? I have a sansamp di but I use it as a drive pedal for certain songs. I don't particularly like it as a preamp as I prefer a pretty clean sound.

Are marquees particularly difficult? Does anyone have any advice on getting nice solid bass sound foh?

[r16ktx]

Was it something to do with the pa not having the headroom to preserve the transients at the lower frequencies? Disclaimer; this is a guess :-(

[mrtcat]

I guess it is possible in a big marquee but it's a really pokey system which has bags of headroom for bass.

[ambient]

Did you really need to go through the pa ?

[mrtcat]

I had no choice really as it was a huge marquee and even with my rig cranked it was getting lost very quickly as you moved away from the stage. It would also meant being so loud on stage that I would blow any monitor mixes.

[gary mac]

I suffered the opposite to you last night. FOH sound through the P.A. was truly excellent but my rig sounded very thin and weedy from where I was standing.

As soon as I saw the venue, I knew it would be a challenge. It was a huge glorified cow shed, concrete floor, walls of concrete blocks and corrugated steel sheeting and then a pitched roof of corrugated sheeting. Higher than your average house and about 50 foot wide x 150 foot or so in length.

[VTypeV4]

To be fair, marquees are notorious power killers so even with a 'more than adequate' PA in normal siituations, a large one can make for a tougher than it ought to be show.

Personally, I think your issue is likely to be a one off problem rather than a deep-rooted one. When I'm playing and mixing (fun, isn't it!!?) I run an HPF as high as I can tolerate (up to ~130Hz / system dependant) and mild dose of soft compression to keep the sound warm and ever present in the FOH. I think agonising over 'which DI' etc is a waste of time as judging by your options, both are credible and more than useable so I'd concentrate on your mixer settings if you're happy on stage.

Just my 2p worth. Best of luck.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1466949459' post='3079900']
The sound I got through the pa wasn't quite so good. It seemed a bit hollow and thin. Hard to describe really but not thick and punchy like from my rig.
[/quote]

On occasion when I've DI'ed before I've gone post EQ and cranked the the mids a little above my normal settings to compensate for the fact that PA speakers wont have the same upper mid presence as my bass cabs.

[JTUK]

This is the point of diminishing returns.... as in how much can you beat yourself up over a non engr FOH sound when you only get limted chances to 'correct'..
If the budget wasn't there to pay for an engr you trust and like... as long as it went well and the sound didn't stink, that is as good as you could hope for.
Sure, you could have sounded great... could have gone the other way too..

In situations like this, I'd do full backline and sound good 'on stage' and bleed into the P.A. This set-up takes a lot of discipline to not adjust levels and you hope to keep it all together.

Onwards to the next one..

[Chrismanbass]

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1466957429' post='3079988']
Why did you go pre-eq? I always use post.
[/quote]


not this again


FWIW post EQ sometimes makes sense if you're mixing your own band as it means you get a roughly similar sound to whats coming out of your rig most of the time (the EQ for your rig may not be appropriate for the FOH mix as sometimes you're cutting what you want to boost in the PA and so on and so forth) it also depends on how much isolation there is between the PA and the backline if you're doing a small pub gig with little PA support needed then Post EQ is okay because the majority of the bass sound you're hearing is the bass amp however if you're doing larger gigs then you have a lot more factors to consider than just your bass sound i've done too many gigs (as an engineer) where i've been given a post EQ DI signal which is completely unusable and not appropriate for where it sits in the mix of the band and you end up with a bass sound that is unnecessarily subby to the point of not being able to tell what note the player is on or even worse a very middy tone which leaves the mix sounding completely empty in the bottom end this is why I'll always if given the option ask for a Pre EQ DI line (possibly paired with a nice bass cab mic where appropriate)

just a little disclaimer I am one of those very rare creatures.... a nice sound guy. I do actually care about how the band sounds and each players tone i'll try and get things right at the source rather than fix them at the mixer end of the multicore however if my hands are tied by a player insisting that i use a Post EQ DI signal then experience tells me that i can't make the band sound as good as possible because you're limiting my options on how I fit people into the overall mix

In terms of the OP's question I doubt its a systemic thing with your sound or your playing so you may want to look at the use of EQ and compression (compression in essence will make your bass more present in the mix but be careful not to over compress it otherwise you'll end up with lots of subby overtones made artificially louder making the bass less present in the mix

i would look at how you're EQ'ing the bass the vast majority of basses have nice fat bottom at around 80 - 170 hz, presence at about 400hz and string clank and cut about about 2.3khz these will vary from bass to bass so experiment with the numbers a little bit and see what sounds good but that should arm you with a good starting point to build the tone that you want

fwiw i also use a HPF to about 100 when i have the choice as this helps to define between the bass drum (which i like to fill out the bottom of the mix) and then have a present bass rather than the other way round where you end up with indistinct mush


again none of this stuff is a hard and fast rule because simply there aren't any its all about personal taste and judgement







ps. heres all the punctuation I probably should have used ..,,.,...,...,...,..,,,...,,.,...,..,., I'm sure you can do the rest


Chris

Edited June 26, 2016 by Chrismanbass

[JTUK]

What was your backline and how big was the marquue...I guess you had a 5kw rig... which soon runs out of steam outside.

But as I say... you didn't have the budget so not much more you could do really.

In an ideal world you'd need probably a load more power,

For example, a marquee for 800-1000 people would need 10k upwards if you wanted to hit the back...
which for a function type gig, you probably wouldn't, IMO.

[EBS_freak]

i suspect your problem is EQ related - if you feel you are lacking balls, check out the compressor on the XR18 and push the make up gain on your bass channel. It willl help you get back in the game - I suspect the transients of your bass were ultimately robbing volume (presuming that your gain structure is right on the desk).

I would always take pre EQ - why wouldn't you - apart from the reasons already mentioned above, the EQ on the XR18 is infinitely more powerful the EQs found on most typical bass amps.

I don't know how big your marquee was but your system is fairly gnarly for a small PA and would certainly have no problem giving you enough volume for the dance floor straight infront of you (not necessarily the rest of the marquee)

Edited June 26, 2016 by EBS_freak

[stingrayPete1977]

That pa should sound epic unless you have a guitarist ripping a marshall stack full blast instead of going through foh, thats some tasty PA you have, the 745s would do most gigs I've ever played never mind the subs, for anyone not familiar with those tops they are not like a Mackie thump, the voice coils can pump out enough top end leaving the 15" to handle mainly the bass and kick drum alone, like having a 15" bass cab fed with a 1400 watt head on both sides of the stage , add in them subs and Wow!

What desk are you using?

[stingrayPete1977]

Oops missed the xair18

Defo pre eq and make use of the eq for the bass channel, also is your kick compressed and gated? If not that superb pa will be trying to amplify everything including the bits not needed robbing lots of power.

Edited June 26, 2016 by stingrayPete1977

[oldbass]

[quote name='gary mac' timestamp='1466957038' post='3079978']
I suffered the opposite to you last night. FOH sound through the P.A. was truly excellent but my rig sounded very thin and weedy from where I was standing.

As soon as I saw the venue, I knew it would be a challenge. It was a huge glorified cow shed, concrete floor, walls of concrete blocks and corrugated steel sheeting and then a pitched roof of corrugated sheeting. Higher than your average house and about 50 foot wide x 150 foot or so in length.
[/quote]

Spot on. Thin and weedy on stage is the way to go for a nice mid range grindy sound out front.

[ubit]

I find di ing doesn't give the best results. That's why I always mic my cab Gives a good sound out front.

[Lozz196]

I suppose for bands with a generic bass sound pre-eq is ok to FOH, but with bands with a specific bass sound, where that sound is as integral to the bands sound as the guitar sound, to pre-eq it - as has been tried with my band at times, unsuccessfully I should point out - would f*** it the band beyond comprehension.

For those that don`t agree, imagine getting Lemmys sound as a straight clean sound FOH. How happy would all those fans have been hearing the band without the sound that the band was built around, and that they`d been expecting.

It often amazes me that we bassists get all our gear that we want, just like the guitarists do, yet we expect the guitarists sound to be replicated totally FOH and ours to be murdered. I`m sure some sounds can be too much and need a bit of adjusting, but why do we so readily expect our instrument to not sound anything like what we want it to. May as well have a different bass/amp/cab/pedal-board every week at rehearsal and just explain to the band - why bother getting used to what I sound like, every gig someone will make your gear sound exactly the same and change mine completley.

[Dad3353]

Could it be something as simple as a phase issue between the FOH and the cab..? Did you try the phase inverter on the bass channel strip..? Just a thought.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Dad3353

[stingrayPete1977]

I've rarely heard any live bands get fx laden bass to sit well in a mix, I'm including big names in that, muse, chilis etc, from a punters point of view I'd rather they just got a nice solid core tone and left it at that live, Flea goes from awesome tone in one song to inaudible in the next!

[Phil Starr]

Chris has it all right, I'm going to say something similar but from a slightly different angle.

Your bass amplification is going to be highly coloured. It is designed to make the bass sound good. For most people and most manufacturers that meand the frequency response is a bumpy hillside. Deep bass below 80Hz is rolled off and there is usually a bump in ooutput from the speakers to warm up the sound in the 100-150 Hz upper bass region. Most speakers will also have a bit of a peak at the 1000Hz point up to 3000Hz where the sound starts to fall away. That helps them cut through and then cuts out the string noise and so on that most of us don't want. That's the sound we all think of as 'clean'! Then we add our own eq.

The PA is designed to be genuinely flat so to get the same sound as your rig then you need to model the amp/speaker you are using. You need to download a plug in which will model an amp for the X18, alternatively you could use the inbuilt eq to do it yourself, but there are plenty of plug ins that will model most well known speakers and amps.

My preference though is to have a bass light sound on stage which cuts out the mush you and your band are working in )and lets you crank your amp if you wish). Then have a mirror image bass heavy, top light sound from the PA to give a balanced tone overall. Don't overdo it though as some people are only going to hear the PA tone.

[stingrayPete1977]

^ tis the future.

[mrtcat]

Awesome thanks everyone. I was going pre eq so that I can use the eq on the mixer. Stage sound is rarely the same as foh so it's easier to start fresh out front. I think I'll go more middy on stage in future and put more low mid on bass channel eq.
Yep kick was gated and compressed so I think the sheer size of area we were trying to fill was a step too far for our rig (there were 500 people in for the evening do).
Usually my bass rig would be enough as it's plenty loud enough. Next engineered marquee gig we get, I'll spend some time with the engineer to see what he's doing.

[stingrayPete1977]

That does sound like a big tent tbf, although as ebs says as long as the dance floor area is covered you are doing alright.

[Skinnyman]

[quote name='Chrismanbass' timestamp='1466960205' post='3080030']

P.s. heres all the punctuation I probably should have used ..,,.,...,...,...,..,,,...,,.,...,..,., I'm sure you can do the rest

[/quote]

Love it

[mrtcat]

[quote name='Chrismanbass' timestamp='1466960205' post='3080030']



not this again


FWIW post EQ sometimes makes sense if you're mixing your own band as it means you get a roughly similar sound to whats coming out of your rig most of the time (the EQ for your rig may not be appropriate for the FOH mix as sometimes you're cutting what you want to boost in the PA and so on and so forth) it also depends on how much isolation there is between the PA and the backline if you're doing a small pub gig with little PA support needed then Post EQ is okay because the majority of the bass sound you're hearing is the bass amp however if you're doing larger gigs then you have a lot more factors to consider than just your bass sound i've done too many gigs (as an engineer) where i've been given a post EQ DI signal which is completely unusable and not appropriate for where it sits in the mix of the band and you end up with a bass sound that is unnecessarily subby to the point of not being able to tell what note the player is on or even worse a very middy tone which leaves the mix sounding completely empty in the bottom end this is why I'll always if given the option ask for a Pre EQ DI line (possibly paired with a nice bass cab mic where appropriate)

just a little disclaimer I am one of those very rare creatures.... a nice sound guy. I do actually care about how the band sounds and each players tone i'll try and get things right at the source rather than fix them at the mixer end of the multicore however if my hands are tied by a player insisting that i use a Post EQ DI signal then experience tells me that i can't make the band sound as good as possible because you're limiting my options on how I fit people into the overall mix

In terms of the OP's question I doubt its a systemic thing with your sound or your playing so you may want to look at the use of EQ and compression (compression in essence will make your bass more present in the mix but be careful not to over compress it otherwise you'll end up with lots of subby overtones made artificially louder making the bass less present in the mix

i would look at how you're EQ'ing the bass the vast majority of basses have nice fat bottom at around 80 - 170 hz, presence at about 400hz and string clank and cut about about 2.3khz these will vary from bass to bass so experiment with the numbers a little bit and see what sounds good but that should arm you with a good starting point to build the tone that you want

fwiw i also use a HPF to about 100 when i have the choice as this helps to define between the bass drum (which i like to fill out the bottom of the mix) and then have a present bass rather than the other way round where you end up with indistinct mush


again none of this stuff is a hard and fast rule because simply there aren't any its all about personal taste and judgement







ps. heres all the punctuation I probably should have used ..,,.,...,...,...,..,,,...,,.,...,..,., I'm sure you can do the rest


Chris
[/quote]

This is all really helpful - thank you.