Getting decent bass sound through foh pa

[drTStingray]

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1466957429' post='3079988']
Why did you go pre-eq? I always use post.
[/quote]

Yes my thoughts entirely - I have this (to some people) odd belief that the PA is intended to simply amplify and extend the band's sound to a bigger area than the back line can.

Some sound guys are great but what is the point of entrusting the composition of the sound to the whim of someone who, for instance may think the epitome of bass sound is a 1960s British pop recording where the bass is an tonally inaudible thump or melodic boom mixed somewhere with the bass drum when you want a razor sharp Tim Commerford sound?

So I go with post EQ and most people have no problem.

Re the OPs question, yes I've come across this also - I think it may be a pa EQ issue - I don't do the sound but notice the master graphic is often set as a smiley face with the mids slightly cut and the bass and treble boosted giving quite a scooped sound. Not sure how much the individual channels can override it but my sound relies on mids.

Edited June 27, 2016 by drTStingray

[Chrismanbass]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1466985474' post='3080286']
Re the OPs question, yes I've come across this also - I think it may be a pa EQ issue - I don't do the sound but notice the master graphic is often set as a smiley face with the mids slightly cut and the bass and treble boosted giving quite a scooped sound. Not sure how much the individual channels can override it but my sound relies on mids.
[/quote]

The FOH graphic should be there to make the PA system have a flat frequency response as possible that way what you are putting in through the channel strip is what is coming out of the speakers

sometimes it gets used for feedback fighting but that rarely makes for good results and is only worth doing if you have no other option (including turning down)

if you cut 3dB from say 100hz on the graphic EQ of the system that takes that out of the entire mix however if you boost 100hz by 3db on the channel strip it then has the effect as if the graphic was at 0 and the channel strip was at 0 too but only for that channel so you'll still have lost 3dB at 100hz on every other channel (sorry if it feels like I'm teaching you to suck eggs but I have no idea what your knowledge level is)

so IMO starting with a smiley face EQ on your FOH graphic and then building a mix from that means that you'l end up chasing your tail and using a lot more EQ than you actually need to which is why i hate walking into a venue where the house sound engineer says "don't worry they graphics are set already and I'd rather you don't touch them"

better of to start from flat and then use the graphic to shape the sound of your mix

Edited June 27, 2016 by Chrismanbass

[DBerriff]

Chris, thank you for contributions which are much appreciated. I have joined a new band and I am struggling a bit with cab vs PA settings.

[Chrismanbass]

no problem I'm happy to answer more specific questions over PM if you have any

[AndrewJordan]

[quote name='Chrismanbass' timestamp='1467023633' post='3080479']
sometimes it gets used for feedback fighting but that rarely makes for good results and is only worth doing if you have no other option (including turning down)

if you cut 3dB from say 100hz on the graphic EQ of the system that takes that out of the entire mix
[/quote]

Hi Chris, I run PA for our band. We often play in quite small venues at fairly high volumes which means we often get feedback from foh which I fight with a graphic. In fact thats all I use the foh graphic for as I have no measuring quipment for setting a flat sound. I could be wrong here but, I was of the impression that if I am getting feedback at say 100hz then something about the room is exciting that freq and making it louder in the mix. Therefore if I cut it enough to kill the feedback then it should be pulling the frequency down to a more even level with the others. Feel free to tell me if I am wrong. I am here to be educated.

[mrtcat]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1466985474' post='3080286']
Re the OPs question, yes I've come across this also - I think it may be a pa EQ issue - I don't do the sound but notice the master graphic is often set as a smiley face with the mids slightly cut and the bass and treble boosted giving quite a scooped sound. Not sure how much the individual channels can override it but my sound relies on mids.
[/quote]

The main mix eq is completely flat. The mixer we have allows you to eq each channel in much more detail than an analogue mixer like this:

[attachment=222355:maxresdefault.jpg]

I have never worked with a mixer that allows EQ on the main mix so it's not something I'd ever use.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='Chrismanbass' timestamp='1467023633' post='3080479']


The FOH graphic should be there to make the PA system have a flat frequency response as possible that way what you are putting in through the channel strip is what is coming out of the speakers

sometimes it gets used for feedback fighting but that rarely makes for good results and is only worth doing if you have no other option (including turning down)

if you cut 3dB from say 100hz on the graphic EQ of the system that takes that out of the entire mix however if you boost 100hz by 3db on the channel strip it then has the effect as if the graphic was at 0 and the channel strip was at 0 too but only for that channel so you'll still have lost 3dB at 100hz on every other channel (sorry if it feels like I'm teaching you to suck eggs but I have no idea what your knowledge level is)

so IMO starting with a smiley face EQ on your FOH graphic and then building a mix from that means that you'l end up chasing your tail and using a lot more EQ than you actually need to which is why i hate walking into a venue where the house sound engineer says "don't worry they graphics are set already and I'd rather you don't touch them"

better of to start from flat and then use the graphic to shape the sound of your mix
[/quote]

You've confirmed exactly what I thought. Thanks for that - it makes sense and explains why we sometimes have problems.

[stingrayPete1977]

The eq required on the stage compared to the rest of the room are often very different, why people think the eq that sounded good in a practice room a week ago will automatically be the right one for the venue FOH I can't grasp?

[luckydog]

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1466949459' post='3079900']
After a little advice from players / engineers who can advise on getting a good bass sound through the pa.

............ I really wanted to hire in pa and engineer but the budget wouldn't allow. [/quote]

Hi mrtcat, I think you already answered it, there's a definite art and it mostly lies in engineers who have it. Perhaps 1/3 equipment and 2/3 engineer. Ultimately it seems to start with having good original sound from the instrument and amp only just loud enough on stage from the amp to produce the sound you want, use bass in the monitors to get the level you need for stage sound, then foh is the kitchen of Eq and compression to work with the other sounds of the band and the room/space.

It's pretty unlikely that DIY will be in the same league, unfortunately..........

HTH!

LD

Edited June 27, 2016 by luckydog

[Chrismanbass]

[quote name='AndrewJordan' timestamp='1467027320' post='3080533']
Hi Chris, I run PA for our band. We often play in quite small venues at fairly high volumes which means we often get feedback from foh which I fight with a graphic. In fact thats all I use the foh graphic for as I have no measuring quipment for setting a flat sound. I could be wrong here but, I was of the impression that if I am getting feedback at say 100hz then something about the room is exciting that freq and making it louder in the mix. Therefore if I cut it enough to kill the feedback then it should be pulling the frequency down to a more even level with the others. Feel free to tell me if I am wrong. I am here to be educated.
[/quote]

sorry been at work

so basically there are a few different ways of creating feedback which all kind of overlap a little bit

the first kind is the room resonance kind where there is something bouncing madly around the room due to the surfaces/shape of the room. we've all at some point or another encountered a really boomy room which kicks off when you play a particular note. This kind of feedback you can most definitely fight with a graphic as I count this as making the PA flat in the room.

the second kind of feedback comes from what i call overgaining for this i have to explain the difference between volume and gain

volume in essence is how loud the signal coming out of the PA hence the use of faders for a good visual reference of your mix

gain on the other hand is how sensitive the mic is (in reality its actually how much the signal from the mic is amplified but it results in the same thing) so if you imagine a vocal mic sitting on the stand there is an invisible ball around the mic which is what the mic picks up as you turn the gain up the ball gets larger and the mic becomes more sensitive.

if you gain the mic up too much because you need the extra volume you end up with it picking up a nearby speaker and it feeding back at a few frequencies

this means you then have to chop some frequencies out of the graphic to stop it feeding back which means that the whole PA mix will suffer because of it and again you end up chasing your tail adding more eq to other stuff than you need to

the third way is pointing a mic at a speaker be that from bad PA positioning or just someone being dumb
but this is pretty obvious

to me it sounds like you're overgaining a little bit to compensate for a quieter FOH rig than you actually need (or gaining up too much and then pulling it back on either the faders or the master)

[mrtcat]

[quote name='luckydog' timestamp='1467066537' post='3081019']
Hi mrtcat, I think you already answered it, there's a definite art and it mostly lies in engineers who have it. Perhaps 1/3 equipment and 2/3 engineer.
[/quote]

I absolutely get this and that's why I had ideally wanted an engineer. Unfortunately adding in the cost of the engineer made it too expensive for the people paying so we explained that the sound quality would likely suffer as a result. They were perfectly happy on the night.

With that said, we played over 100 gigs last year and only included an engineer on about 15 of them. I have a good understanding of how to mix live but it was just this gig where I felt like my foh bass sound wasn't up to scratch. Conversely the drums sounded absolutely great and the monitor mix was really good all round.

[stingrayPete1977]

Was it actually bad? Quite often I've been told how good the bass sounded at gigs where I thought it was crap from the stage area.

[AndrewJordan]

[quote name='Chrismanbass' timestamp='1467109574' post='3081199']
sorry been at work

so basically there are a few different ways of creating feedback which all kind of overlap a little bit

the first kind is the room resonance kind where there is something bouncing madly around the room due to the surfaces/shape of the room. we've all at some point or another encountered a really boomy room which kicks off when you play a particular note. This kind of feedback you can most definitely fight with a graphic as I count this as making the PA flat in the room.

the second kind of feedback comes from what i call overgaining for this i have to explain the difference between volume and gain

volume in essence is how loud the signal coming out of the PA hence the use of faders for a good visual reference of your mix

gain on the other hand is how sensitive the mic is (in reality its actually how much the signal from the mic is amplified but it results in the same thing) so if you imagine a vocal mic sitting on the stand there is an invisible ball around the mic which is what the mic picks up as you turn the gain up the ball gets larger and the mic becomes more sensitive.

if you gain the mic up too much because you need the extra volume you end up with it picking up a nearby speaker and it feeding back at a few frequencies

this means you then have to chop some frequencies out of the graphic to stop it feeding back which means that the whole PA mix will suffer because of it and again you end up chasing your tail adding more eq to other stuff than you need to

the third way is pointing a mic at a speaker be that from bad PA positioning or just someone being dumb
but this is pretty obvious

to me it sounds like you're overgaining a little bit to compensate for a quieter FOH rig than you actually need (or gaining up too much and then pulling it back on either the faders or the master)
[/quote]

Cheers Chris! That's a good explanation and it makes me fairly confident that it is actually room resonance that I am usually dealing with. I think I have a fairly decent grasp of mic pick up patterns and speaker dispersion patterns and so I always try to get the best positioning that the room will allow. My example of 100hz was maybe a bad/misleading one as in fact the offending feqs are always in the region of 1k and upwards. I always pfl the input gains to never higher than a good healthy level and if anything is being overpowered in the mix I will pull everything else down on the faders rather than crank the input gain. Our PA is pretty good and more than adequate for the venues we play in.

[LayDownThaFunk]

In short - on stage and out front will sound different to anyone. Always go pre EQ, kids.

[peted]

I've been caught out before having the 'low cut' switch engaged on my channel by accident. It's only really useful on vocals.

[Lozz196]

For all those advocating going pre-eq, I can kindof see why, but I`d ask, click on the link below, listen to our song Fingers To The Bone (about a third of the way down), and tell me if a pre-eq`d flat Precision sound to FOH is going to accurately represent the sound my band wants the audience to hear.

http://knockoff.wix.com/mysite

[AndrewJordan]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1467148162' post='3081557']
For all those advocating going pre-eq, I can kindof see why, but I`d ask, click on the link below, listen to our song Fingers To The Bone (about a third of the way down), and tell me if a pre-eq`d flat Precision sound to FOH is going to accurately represent the sound my band wants the audience to hear.

[url="http://knockoff.wix.com/mysite"]http://knockoff.wix.com/mysite[/url]
[/quote]
[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1467148162' post='3081557']
For all those advocating going pre-eq, I can kindof see why, but I`d ask, click on the link below, listen to our song Fingers To The Bone (about a third of the way down), and tell me if a pre-eq`d flat Precision sound to FOH is going to accurately represent the sound my band wants the audience to hear.

[url="http://knockoff.wix.com/mysite"]http://knockoff.wix.com/mysite[/url]
[/quote]

Absolutely not! It's a worry to me also. I hate being at the mercy of unknown engineers. An engineer once told me "I am not interested in what a bass player thinks is a good tone". I understand why they want clean sub to put under the guitars but in cases where a band has a distinct bass sound then the cab should be miced and mixed in as well. Not all engineers are as bad as the one I mentioned by the way.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1467148162' post='3081557']
For all those advocating going pre-eq...[/quote]

The best analogy I can think of would be the singer. When Kiemsa were active (ska/punk/rock...), we had a sound man in the team who knew exactly what was required (he'd been in the team from the start, including the studio sessions for the albums...), and 'played' the console depending on the needs of the songs. A bit of reverb here, a large dose of echo at an appropriate moment, for all of the channels, throughout the concert. For a specific sound, from the bass, guitar or whatever, he'd do the necessary magic and it worked a treat. Yes, the bass was post-eq (and fx...), but there was still work going on at the desk. If one has a dedicated sound man, I don't see any problem.
Things are different if there's someone on the console that knows nothing of the repertoire, or even the style of the band before sound check (if there even is a sound check..!). I've done this in the past, and there's no way that I could know if the bass (or anything else...) was what the band wanted to public to hear, or when the singer was going to chat to the public, and needed the fx cut. All I could do would be to get the best sound FOH that I thought best fitted what I heard, often for the first time, and 'live'. If the bass sounds bad (to me...) I'd correct it as best as I could. There's no accounting for tastes, and doubtless my mixing (or anyone else's, in the same circumstances...) could be less than optimum, but that's the price one pays for not touring with one's own rig, riggers and sound bloke. Same for lights (I've done years of that...); when is a blackout to be used..? When to 'spot' a soloist..? When does the tempo change..? One gets used to it, but it's not the same as having an experienced team that know the ropes. A clean feed is a minimum in that case, plus a mic on the cab if possible, and mix 'em. That's my recipe, anyway.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Dad3353

[luckydog]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1467150285' post='3081576']
The best analogy I can think of would be the singer. When Kiemsa were active (ska/punk/rock...), we had a sound man in the team who knew exactly what was required (he'd been in the team from the start, including the studio sessions for the albums...), and 'played' the console depending on the needs of the songs. A bit of reverb here, a large dose of echo at an appropriate moment, for all of the channels, throughout the concert. For a specific sound, from the bass, guitar or whatever, he'd do the necessary magic and it worked a treat. Yes, the bass was post-eq (and fx...), but there was still work going on at the desk. If one has a dedicated sound man, I don't see any problem.
Things are different if there's someone on the console that knows nothing of the repertoire, or even the style of the band before sound check (if there even is a sound check..!). I've done this in the past, and there's no way that I could know if the bass (or anything else...) was what the band wanted to public to hear, or when the singer was going to chat to the public, and needed the fx cut. All I could do would be to get the best sound FOH that I thought best fitted what I heard, often for the first time, and 'live'. If the bass sounds bad (to me...) I'd correct it as best as I could. There's no accounting for tastes, and doubtless my mixing (or anyone else's, in the same circumstances...) could be less than optimum, but that's the price one pays for not touring with one's own rig, riggers and sound bloke. Same for lights (I've done years of that...); when is a blackout to be used..? When to 'spot' a soloist..? When does the tempo change..? One gets used to it, but it's not the same as having an experienced team that know the ropes. A clean feed is a minimum in that case, plus a mic on the cab if possible, and mix 'em. That's my recipe, anyway.
[/quote]Yes, way to fly for sure.

A FOH engineer once recorded a multitrack of our set, which was post desk EQ as it happens. So I got to hear my raw bass sounds as applied to the PA. At the desk, DI was compressed and EQ'd to provide the bottom end, cab mic was compressed and EQ'd to provide mostly mids and a surprising amount of upper mids and top. Listening to either channel on its own sounded nothing like the original bass sound, but when combined and applied to the PA in that room it sounded great I'm told, and other bands using our backline certainly did. IIRC it was a 20kW PA rig in a med-large venue. It's a kitchen, and engineers are chefs: best to leave them to do the seasoning, not apply one's own salt..

LD

Edited June 29, 2016 by luckydog

[stingrayPete1977]

I think there's a lot of confusion between using pre or post eq on the head with a di and pre meaning a clean only bass, you can still use your fuzz and wah etc before the di box and send that pre eq of the head, still risky unless you have the time to test all the patches to the foh but you can set your stage amp however you like then and adjust mid set or even mid song without screwing the foh.

Clean clean clean for me though, studios and live without my own sound crew are very different things imo.

[luckydog]

Yes, in the example I mentioned above DI was taken just before the input to the amp, but might as well have been DI from the amp pre eq. I can see the sense in that, in the chef analogy, pre eq at the amp is unseasoned !

LD

[stingrayPete1977]

lots of courses with very different flavours and textures is great in a fancy restaurant where you have time to savour them, I'm not saying we should all have McDonalds for every meal but I'd rather have a good roast beef dinner that most of the punters can enjoy than a smoked asparagus sausage on a bed of hummus that only the front few tables got to taste, even if they said it was very very tasty!

Meat and potatoes down the clean di, Mic a cab maybe if you like a bit of onion gravy on top.

:-D

[ivansc]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1466969995' post='3080154']
^ tis the future.
[/quote]

(gin) I used to run a tiny 300 watt Peavey 1x15 combo onstage and face it sideways across the stage so the band could hear it but little escaped out front.
Guitar player used TWO twins, leant back on the metal support thingies and angled directly at HIM, one either side of his vocal wedge.
With side fills carrying nothing but the drums and backline we had a great onstage sound and almost no spill. Sound guys loved us, monitors AND foh.
This was back in 1985-ish. Venues mostly ran to a max 4000 people though, so I don't know where the size/spill crossover point is!.

Edited June 30, 2016 by ivansc

[drTStingray]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1467202452' post='3081866']
lots of courses with very different flavours and textures is great in a fancy restaurant where you have time to savour them, I'm not saying we should all have McDonalds for every meal but I'd rather have a good roast beef dinner that most of the punters can enjoy than a smoked asparagus sausage on a bed of hummus that only the front few tables got to taste, even if they said it was very very tasty!

Meat and potatoes down the clean di, Mic a cab maybe if you like a bit of onion gravy on top.

:-D
[/quote]

I see where you're coming from but many bass players use lots of different techniques - eg thumb mute on some songs, heavy finger style on others - slap on others - it's part of being a musician - especially a versatile one.

The real problem comes when your band requires a complex curry flavour and your sound person has never experienced anything but boiled beef and carrots. Post DI for me - I have been caught out too many times before - micing cabs can work but I personally prefer di as the speakers can also colour the sound somewhat.

Edited June 30, 2016 by drTStingray

[stingrayPete1977]

Well you can't pre di the players fingers or the bass controls, that's where subtle changes for slap, thumb and plectrum should be made imo, not on the amp.