Getting decent bass sound through foh pa

[luckydog]

In the recorded DI channel straight off of the guitar, I was surprised at how hard I was hitting it playing live, and how much driven tone was coming from the instrument itself. It's a Pbass picked, no effects, 'light side of heavy rock' some say.

LD

Edited June 30, 2016 by luckydog

[blue]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1466955896' post='3079971']
Did you really need to go through the pa ?
[/quote]

In a small club, maybe not. Large festival stage Yes.

Blue

[blue]

We play the world famous Summerfest next week on The Johnson Controls World sound stage. World class sound and lights.

If we get even a marginally good sound we'll be lucky. However, for whatever reason when the headlining act hits the stage at 10:00pm the sound will be awesome. And some headliners don't have dedicated engineers that work for them.

I swear there's a button on the main board that has 2 positions.

1. Headliner (great sound)
2. Supporting act (crap sound)

Blue

[luckydog]

There are two main reasons headline bands often have different and generally better sound at events even with quality PA/engineers:

1. They often bring their own engineers who are not only good but know the band's sound.

2. Headline band(s) often do a thorough soundcheck, and decent desks have automation and can remember and recall setups for each band (from the soundcheck) at the press of a button or two.

Though events are different from regular gigs, such principles can still be applied to small setups. And at events, be sure to do a thorough soundcheck if at all possible, and bring yer own engineers if they are up to the calibre of the event and equipment, and tell the event crew in advance.

HTH!

LD

[blue]

[quote name='luckydog' timestamp='1467356891' post='3083009']
There are two main reasons headline bands often have different and generally better sound at events even with quality PA/engineers:

1. They often bring their own engineers who are not only good but know the band's sound.

2. Headline band(s) often do a thorough soundcheck, and decent desks have automation and can remember and recall setups for each band (from the soundcheck) at the press of a button or two.

Though events are different from regular gigs, such principles can still be applied to small setups. And at events, be sure to do a thorough soundcheck if at all possible, and bring yer own engineers if they are up to the calibre of the event and equipment, and tell the event crew in advance.

HTH!

LD
[/quote]

I've played Summerfest for the past 5 years. The sound check the supporting acts get is a joke.

Blue

[stingrayPete1977]

Which is why for me in those instances I'd rather forego the awesome fuzz wah delay grind for a standard generic 'good' bass sound that can at least be heard out the front. Stingray pre eq, job done since '76 :-D

[Chrismanbass]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1467376319' post='3083214']
I've played Summerfest for the past 5 years. The sound check the supporting acts get is a joke.

Blue
[/quote]

As harsh as it sounds thats because you're the support act and not the big draw like the headliner in the eyes of the promoter so if you sound crap no one really cares (apart from a small minority of people who've come to see you not the headliner)

if the headliner sounds crap then the promoter has people asking for their money back

not a nice situation but thats the reality of it.

[blue]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1467376712' post='3083219']
Which is why for me in those instances I'd rather forego the awesome fuzz wah delay grind for a standard generic 'good' bass sound that can at least be heard out the front. Stingray pre eq, job done since '76 :-D
[/quote]

I usually empkoy a little chorus or phase with the bass octive pedal.

But your right for Summerfest I'm probably better off with a decent clean signal.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='Chrismanbass' timestamp='1467379233' post='3083243']


As harsh as it sounds thats because you're the support act and not the big draw like the headliner in the eyes of the promoter so if you sound crap no one really cares (apart from a small minority of people who've come to see you not the headliner)

if the headliner sounds crap then the promoter has people asking for their money back

not a nice situation but thats the reality of it.
[/quote]

I'm out there working enough to know I can't debate your point.

Agreed

Blue

[scalpy]

I ask the sound guy if he'll try the bass sound post di first. Always nice about it and happy to push the button if necessary. Only one guy has asked, bass has always sounded good on playback at the very least. Recording, one producer I work with absolutely insists on post eq.

[scalpy]

Just set up for tonight's gig. Sound guy insisted on DI box. Basschat version of commentators curse!

[stingrayPete1977]

The last few studio sessions I've done I didn't even take a head!

Stingray 5 Alnico (pickup version) into a mac I think? No lack of heft at 2.30 and not a valve amp in sight!
https://m.soundcloud.com/davebarronband/a-place-in-your-memory-final

Edited July 2, 2016 by stingrayPete1977

[ubit]

Why do we spend so much on that particular speaker cab, then go out the DI and bypass everything you have spent ages on, perfecting that sound?

[FuNkShUi]

Sound of the cab is for your own personal pleasure. Didnt you know?

[JTUK]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1467975276' post='3087696']
Why do we spend so much on that particular speaker cab, then go out the DI and bypass everything you have spent ages on, perfecting that sound?
[/quote]

Because that is the playback sound you and the band are going to be playing to.

[stingrayPete1977]

Until people grasp the idea that the carefully honed sound they created in the practice room may or may not sound rubbish as the front of house sound regardless of how good or expensive the equipment is or how well you know the kit this argument will continue forever, my bass amp is a couple of grands worth but the sound from my pa with a clean di is better than it as the front of house, it also sits in the mix easier, throwing £350 worth of post eq head at what is sometimes thousands of pounds worth of PA is quite odd really.

If your backline is your front of house that's a different story.

Edited July 8, 2016 by stingrayPete1977

[luckydog]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1467473673' post='3083972']
Just set up for tonight's gig. Sound guy insisted on DI box. Basschat version of commentators curse!
[/quote]Hopefully mic on the cab too...... if not, well worth asking for it. Sound off the cab is less safe, less control for engineers. But the option for at least some of cab sound worked in there makes for good sound.

LD

[largo]

Our on-stage sound engineer aka guitarist insists on me going Pre which is fine. However he's saying the bass is very muffled FOH and asking for a lot more treble from the bass itself! Pretty much 3/4 to full on at all times. It's my only tone control on a passive PJ and means I now have to back to the amp every time I want to adjust settings. My back line could cut cheese with how much treble is being pushed unless I turn down to 8 o clock with 6 being off. Any suggestions?

[scalpy]

[quote name='luckydog' timestamp='1467993739' post='3087945']
Hopefully mic on the cab too...... if not, well worth asking for it. Sound off the cab is less safe, less control for engineers. But the option for at least some of cab sound worked in there makes for good sound.

LD
[/quote]

No mic on cab, but the broadcast feed seemed to sound ok, nothing more. I did say try the amp DI first but he said he'd given up using those as they're so varied and can be noisy. I replied that mine is fine but got the 'you don't know what it's like out front' response. Well, I do actually and it's great, was more than adequate for him last time we played there and instead I've got that cold, sterile generic sound again that flattens the whole performance. It was a really weird atmosphere as the venue go out of their way to be accommodating to the acts, free coffee and a great meal but when it came to being onstage we were told to f-off by the sound engineer so he could set up, and we had to do 2 and a half soundchecks. 1 normal, then a soundcheck video, then another 40 minutes before going onstage after the owner of the venue had waved his finger at us saying 'you mustn't turn up' in a rather stern headmastery fashion. We don't, the drummer with this band is a top flight pro with an international cv (he always gets complimented for playing the correct volume for the space everywhere we play) but it appeared Mr Owner had had enough of bands just getting louder and louder and assumed we'd be the same. He then couldn't figure out the drummer was using a chain on one of his rides and had a major go at mr sticks for causing him problems. Well, how was the drummer meant to know if you couldn't figure it out until 3 songs in, mr big shot? It really gets my goat when engineers treat musicians as problems to be solved and work against us, especially if it only sounds clinical as an end result.

[luckydog]

That's interesting Scalpy. The best engineers make musicians feel comfortable. When you're happy and trust that they'll get the sound right, it feels better to play and no doubt sounds better for it. Grumpy engineers, and there's lots of them but not all, do exactly the opposite and are obstacles themselves to good performance and sound being good.

Just recently we obtained a multitrack recording of our set from a good venue with a good happy engineer, who had used a mix of DI from guitar and an M-88 on the cab for FOH. The recording included both DI channel and mic channels seperately, post eq on the desk. They are very different sounds, and actually the guitar DI on its own sounds awful! My guess is he didn't use much of it. If it was just by itself, would need radical eq and compression on the desk, and even then would no doubt lack character of a real cab.

LD

[JTUK]

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1468047269' post='3088219']
Our on-stage sound engineer aka guitarist insists on me going Pre which is fine. However he's saying the bass is very muffled FOH and asking for a lot more treble from the bass itself! Pretty much 3/4 to full on at all times. It's my only tone control on a passive PJ and means I now have to back to the amp every time I want to adjust settings. My back line could cut cheese with how much treble is being pushed unless I turn down to 8 o clock with 6 being off. Any suggestions?
[/quote]

Doesn't sound like the signal chain is very good and at some point it is getting choked...
He needs to chase the signal thru if you are running toppy and he is getting muffled.

Is the P.A any good..?? blown horns...? (very common as on stage people might not be hearing/testing out front) does it do that with other signals?

[luckydog]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1468056591' post='3088310']
Doesn't sound like the signal chain is very good and at some point it is getting choked...
He needs to chase the signal thru if you are running toppy and he is getting muffled.
[/quote]Not much goes on of any interest above about 4kHz in rock bass guitar typically. So lacking top in bass actually means lacking upper mids really, in case that helps? Suspect the DI XLR interface if it happens on all channels of the desk ? Otherwise the cable may not be wired 'correctly' or may have a fault. Failing which, the amp's XLR interface might have a fault or not be able to drive the 600R termination from the desk. Or maybe the amp doesn't like phantom power, if that is on ?

HTH!

LD

[Lozz196]

[quote name='luckydog' timestamp='1468055041' post='3088290']
That's interesting Scalpy. The best engineers make musicians feel comfortable. When you're happy and trust that they'll get the sound right, it feels better to play and no doubt sounds better for it. Grumpy engineers, and there's lots of them but not all, do exactly the opposite and are obstacles themselves to good performance and sound being good.
LD
[/quote]

Spot on. When we played at The Rebellion Festival last year I asked the sound guy a couple of thinds such as will you take a DI from my preamp pedal etc and his response was, we`re working for you guys, you know your sound, we`re here to make you sound how you want. I`m yet to experience a horror story like Scalpy had, but to have a sound guy actually say what he did to us, especially as it was our first time at such a big event, well it really helped, both soundwise, and at making us feel a lot more relaxed.

[largo]

PA should be fine. Reasonably new with a QSC KSub & KW122 either side. I might run DI from my Behringer BDI121 pedal tonight & see if it helps too rather than take it from the amp. Thanks for the suggestions so far, any more gratefully received too.

[stingrayPete1977]

Like anything there are sound guys and sound guys in as much as they are paid to do the sound, I could run a 4 band evening behind the desk but it would sound rubbish, if I was paid to do it I'd be a professional sound guy!