barneyg42 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I can't quite see what amp the OP has, MB LM3? I was the one who had the slappit and it cuts out problem, turns out the old speaker I was using was at fault. I got myself a 800watt Schroeder 212pl 4ohms. Perfect one speaker solution it seems, I play with a pretty loud band, pre-gain to just below the clip light and master on maximum 3 so far. Played a dep gig at the weekend, massive pub/club, 3 was too loud. Admittedly not the rock stuff I do in my regular band but still needed some ooomphh to fill the club. When I had my TC BH500 rig I ran a TC2x10 and a BF Compact, it would deafen at 20 yards+ I'm of the same opinion of most on here, another speaker giving 4ohms load and the amp should be ticking over at moderate volume with some to spare. Maybe you could borrow something at a rehearsal just to see if it works, otherwise your band must be epically loud!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelreject Posted June 28, 2016 Author Share Posted June 28, 2016 (edited) Thanks again all and cheers Frank for the testing offer! May avail of it although there may be another cab at the rehearsal studio I can try out. Glad to hear you got sorted barneyg42 Edited June 28, 2016 by modelreject Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul S Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1467114691' post='3081252'] Watts don't matter. You don't measure sound levels in watts, you measure it in decibels, and there's no direct correlation between the two. If there was a Vox AC30 wouldn't make your ears bleed from fifty feet away, nor would anyone be able to gig with an Ampeg B15. The simple fact of the matter is if you can't get the volume you want with one cab you need two cabs. [/quote] I'm having trouble getting my head around this unless it needs qualifying. I know it is a pointless exercise comparing different manufacturers wattage outputs - I use a Trace Elliot 300W head that is louder than the Mark Bass Little Mark Tube 800 it replaced, for example. But for the sake of discussion, surely a GenzBenz 900W amp is going to be louder than a GenzBenz 600W amp through a single cab? Or, as in the OP, the MB 300W head through a 300W power amp and into the one Supercompact? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1467105245' post='3081154'] Mmm... maybe not. The tone you want isn't necessarily the best tone for the band. The tone I prefer when playing solo would be totally unsuitable within my band. Getting a good sound is always a compromise ................. [/quote] To a degree in that you need to layer not crash thru a wall of sound. This is why cranking mids can be wrong... you are trying to cut thru a small space rather that sit with it.. Gtrs, keys and drums can all be guilty ...as can bass..which is why you need to work out what you want to achieve.... but my solo tone would not be incompatible with the band and so I wouldn't bechanging it. I'd like to hear some of the problems guys have when they have to change their their sound totally. Do they go for a nasal honk which will certainly cut through but just not be pleasant to listen to..and would be pretty hard to play with anyway? So, no, I don't subscribe to two sounds in order to make a 'mix' work.. I'd say that anyone who dials in mids as a matter of course, can very quickly be in danger of not being able to underpin the band...so if they have to do to 'cut' thru you have made one compromise to create another one. This happens way too often to a lot of bands I hear doing the rounds and it typically starts with a very small bass speaker up against a pokey-in terms of volume-band... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 [quote name='lowhand_mike' timestamp='1467116461' post='3081267'] eh? so what ive been told is all lies [/quote]What you've been told comes mainly from marketing departments, usually through advertising. So yes, lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1467114691' post='3081252'] Watts don't matter. You don't measure sound levels in watts, you measure it in decibels, and there's no direct correlation between the two. If there was a Vox AC30 wouldn't make your ears bleed from fifty feet away, nor would anyone be able to gig with an Ampeg B15. The simple fact of the matter is if you can't get the volume you want with one cab you need two cabs. [/quote] Yep, I had to sell my B-15 (25w) because it was far too loud for my needs (small studio), and far far louder than several other amps I've owned that were rated at over 10x the wattage. [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1467127835' post='3081362'] What you've been told comes mainly from marketing departments, usually through advertising. So yes, lies. [/quote] Ha ha, that's about the truth of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigevilman Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1467127835' post='3081362'] What you've been told comes mainly from marketing departments, usually through advertising. So yes, lies. [/quote] Marketing......lie......? You sound so cynical Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 to be fair its what i read on here, but ye live and learn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 [quote name='lowhand_mike' timestamp='1467131558' post='3081392'] to be fair its what i read on here... [/quote] Yes but the people who've said it here have all too often picked it up through marketing themselves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thodrik Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I have a 300 watt Mesa Walkabout that has been loud enough for pretty much every type of gig, from jazz, rock, doom, djent even when in 1x15 combo form. More speakers is always the best start. Speaker positioning can always help as well. Getting your band to pay attention to volume levels also helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 [quote name='thodrik' timestamp='1467135347' post='3081424'] I have a 300 watt Mesa Walkabout that has been loud enough for pretty much every type of gig, from jazz, rock, doom, djent even when in 1x15 combo form. More speakers is always the best start. Speaker positioning can always help as well. Getting your band to pay attention to volume levels also helps. [/quote] I have a Mesa Walkabout combo and used to have a matching extension cab. The main problem when using the extension was that of not blowing the doors off the venue, it was unfeasibly loud. However, too much scooping and even that could disappear into the mix, so whilst the extra speaker and positioning is important, the EQ has to be appropriate also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorks5stringer Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 [quote name='lowhand_mike' timestamp='1467110123' post='3081205'] creating the low frequencies at high volumes requires alot of power (as i understand it) so if you have the lows turned up you will run out of volume quickly and it will swamp the tone. Yes the cab can take 600w but your amp is running at 8ohm so you will at best get [b]2/3 of your 300w[/b]. adding another 8ohm cab will have the amp running at 4ohm and you'll get the full 300w. your gain should be set so the amp only clips (clip light comes on if there is one) if you really dig in, if you boost your lows this will happen quicker so you will have to turn down your gain more. i know the VU meter on my ashdown spikes more with nmore lows added and the tone controls are accumulative so the more you boost them the lower the gain has to be, so i cut my bass a little and up the low mids and mids a little and keep an eye on the spikes when playing. hope tht helps and appologies if its a complete pile of gumph [/quote] The LM2/3 is 500 watts so I think you mean '2/3 of your 500 watts' at 8 ohm and 1 cab, which will be 300 watts? With 2 cabs down to 4 ohm it will be 500 watts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 [quote name='6v6' timestamp='1467096123' post='3081076'] Are you using the vpf filter? IME that pulls all the guts out of the sound, so I'd try turning it off if so, and set the eq flat. Good luck! [/quote] That's also a good point. Some people don't realise at first that off is all the way anticlockwise and set it at 12 o'clock... which is going to seriously scoop the sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 [quote name='lowhand_mike' timestamp='1467116461' post='3081267'] eh? so what ive been told is all lies i stand corrected, though whats the point in buying an 800watt amp over a 300 if they dont matter [/quote] (The LM3 is 500W at 4 ohm) Watts sort of matter, but sort of don't. The loudness of your system depends on many factors, not just the watts. We're used to seeing just watts quoted and we tend to think 'whoa, that is 300W more powerful, it must be a hell of a lot louder' when in reality it often isn't that much louder. It soon becomes clear if you try it for yourself. I found out the hard and expensive way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Another vote for a second cabinet............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 [quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1467139995' post='3081484'] (The LM3 is 500W at 4 ohm) Watts sort of matter, but sort of don't. The loudness of your system depends on many factors, not just the watts. We're used to seeing just watts quoted and we tend to think 'whoa, that is 300W more powerful, it must be a hell of a lot louder' when in reality it often isn't that much louder. It soon becomes clear if you try it for yourself. I found out the hard and expensive way [/quote]This. Watts matter, if they didn't then your amp would produce the same volume wherever you set the volume control. There is a direct relationship between sound levels and wattage. Sound levels increase with the logarithm of power levels, They double with a tenfold increase in power. Doubling your speakers gives a 3dB increase because the power increases and 3dB due to the improved efficiency of using two cones. A single 12 is about the point where it can work on its own with a rock band. It will produce about 120dB across the frequency range at 1m from the cab. Using a quality driver like Barefaced will ensure that it will do this at the lower frequencies you need which cheaA single 12 per speakers generally struggle with. Without getting too technical that means with a bit of compression you can probably play at 100dB average giving you a 40dB dynamic range. The measurements I've seen for a rock drummer are about 103dB at their ears, enough to damage their hearing after about an hours exposure! But this means you'll be at just about their volume with a single 12. Two identical 12's and an amp with a decent power supply will give you a peak of 126dB and an average level of 106dB@ 1m. Taking you just above the volume of the drummer. I suppose what this is saying is what we all know, A single 12 should be enough at a practice or small to medium gig, above that and two will do nicely. Start saving for a second speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Plus two cabs always looks better than one haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) I might be missing something here, but I thought the whole idea of these cabs was to cover a lot of ground that normally a 2x12 or 4x10 would cover? I have learnt to respect all opinions on these cabinets, and I was at one point very tempted by a BB2, but I already have enough gear. However, this is the literature (and I presume honest 'marketing' if we are to be fair to other manufacturers) on the BF site. So, in essence, adding another Super Compact makes it equivalent to a 4x12 or 8x10? (I assume not a high end version of one of those). If you are putting a well regarded amp into an expensive cab that is equivalent to a 2x12 or 4x10, and running out of steam...something isn't right even at 8 ohms. Either with gain/EQ or possibly the amp itself. You will also be damaging your hearing significantly if the band is competing at those volumes. I used to rehearse with a touring hardcore band and we played stupid volumes. I would constantly tell them it isn't needed, but it was all about cranking those big 4x12s. I never ran out of steam with similar amps....through standard 8 ohm 4x10s from the practice room. To confirm, I don't think shelling out for another expensive cab is a good option. It makes no sense as that cab is to cover a much larger cabs role. If that is the case, I would ask BF for another option, as that isn't covering what you need. Are you within the trial period? Edited June 29, 2016 by Musicman20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelreject Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 I totally agree that the cab and amp should be enough for my situation. Will be looking to tweak settings over the weekend. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barneyg42 Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 I found that after I'd got the rig together as mentioned in my previous post the loudness was there but to cut through I had to tweak a bit. A bit more low mid, not push the vpf too much and then I have a graphic pedal to scoop the mid if I'm slapping a bit, with a bit of volume pushed on it to compensate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) [quote name='Merton' timestamp='1467185742' post='3081671'] Plus two cabs always looks better than one haha [/quote] Besides this very important point ... I often used two cabs onstage not so much for the extra volume -which was unnecessary just for stage- but because of having a second speaker closer to my ears really help me hearing myself, whilst avoiding turning up the volume much... so it makes balancing things on stage easier. But I doubt it's *necessary* in this case. Looking forward to hearing what the solution is for the OP Edited June 29, 2016 by mcnach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) [quote name='modelreject' timestamp='1467034914' post='3080629'] Just my own woes here. Had a band practice on Sunday. Had my Markbass cranked. Full gain and master but had to roll off the gain because it was clipping. 300W through my 8Ohm Barefaced Super Compact. The cab could handle a lot more and I needed the extra volume. Can't return the amp now so will be out a bit of money if I do upgrade :-( Only had it a month so still under warranty. Hopefully someone will take it at near fill price. Fingers crossed. [/quote] One thing ive found is that in a rehearsal space the acoustics can play tricks on you. I dont know how large the room is or where you were standing, but IME its easy to stand too close and feel you need to turn up because you are off axis. Quite often you may be very loud at a further distance. This was demonstrated to me a few weeks ago when we were rehearsing. I had what i thought was a good volume, although i did think we were too loud oval as the settings on my amp were the same as i would use at a gig. Anyway, i went off to have a pee and my son picked the bass up. When i got back the band were playing but all i could hear when i walked in was the bass. As i walked across the room the bass got quieter, until i was back at the usual point and it sounded just right. Probably not relevant to this thread on a technical level as i dont have any figures to post, but thought id post anyway. Edited June 30, 2016 by dave_bass5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubrad Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Yup, sometimes just the sound pressure of the combined band in a small enclosed space is terrible for actually hearing things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 [quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1467295973' post='3082622'] Probably not relevant to this thread on a technical level as i dont have any figures to post, but thought id post anyway. [/quote]Very relevant. What you often get in a rehearsal space, especially one with low ceilings, are cancellations from the waves reflected off nearby boundaries. When you move away the distance that those reflections travel increases, taking the cancellation frequencies down below where they affect you. The same thing happens in close quarters on a stage versus out in the audience. This phenomenon led to the myth of wave propagation, the silly notion that you can't hear long wavelengths at close distances. The wags who came up with that idea clearly had never used headphones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1467303654' post='3082714'] Very relevant. What you often get in a rehearsal space, especially one with low ceilings, are cancellations from the waves reflected off nearby boundaries. When you move away the distance that those reflections travel increases, taking the cancellation frequencies down below where they affect you. The same thing happens in close quarters on a stage versus out in the audience. This phenomenon led to the myth of wave propagation, the silly notion that you can't hear long wavelengths at close distances. The wags who came up with that idea clearly had never used headphones. [/quote] when we practice we practice in a circle, seems to work and if i'm too loud or guitarist we can tell each other because we are 20ft (at least) away from each other. we're very lucky with our rehearsal space. also i get one of my band mates to pluck away on my bass and i'll have a wander round the room, helps get levels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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