Here are the chords, but I'm on Capo 4...

[Mottlefeeder]

Following on from [size=4]'[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I suck at figuring out songs by ear. Any advice guys?' I used to think that I was reasonably proficient at transposing on the fly - then I went to an open mic night with a different set of people with different songs,and I really struggled. I seem to be able to cope with akey change if I know the song, but not if I don't.[/font][/size]

[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]So how do you deal with a song that you do not know, where you are given the chords, but the guitarist plays it in a different key and you have about 20 seconds before he/she starts?[/font][/size]

[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]David[/font][/size]

Edited July 8, 2016 by Mottlefeeder

[paul h]

I find it pretty tough to do on the fly to be honest. It's something I've had to deal with recently in a country project, swapping from acoustic guitar with a capo, to bass, to lead guitar[i].[/i]

Personally I think the best way is to think of the chord numbers as opposed to the names. So instead of think G, C, D, think of it as I, IV, V. Then once you have found the root for the first chord it should be easier to play the necessary intervals.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Mottlefeeder' timestamp='1467974551' post='3087678']
... [size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]you are given the chords, but the guitarist plays it in a different key ...[/font][/size]

[/quote]

Either you have been given the wrong chords or the guitarist is playing in the wrong key. I can't bear when people with a capo can't name chords correctly.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='paul h' timestamp='1467975068' post='3087688']
... think of it as I, IV, V ...
[/quote]

Much better - as long as the correct key is named.

[paul h]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1467975315' post='3087697']
Either you have been given the wrong chords or the guitarist is playing in the wrong key. I can't bear when people with a capo can't name chords correctly.
[/quote]

I've been guilty of that recently. I found myself working out the chords for a couple of lazy guitarists...so I would say "capo at x fret, play G, C, D, Em." But then when I came to play it on bass, or tell the keyboard player what to play I used the real chord names.

It all got quite confusing

[ambient]

It's amazing the number of people who aren't able to correctly tell you what key something is in anyway.

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1467975769' post='3087708']
It's amazing the number of people who aren't able to correctly tell you what key something is in anyway.
[/quote]

Agreed. Equally painful when they don't tell you if its major or minor

[bassjim]

if its a simple tune like for example: bad girls by donna summer, then its just the same pattern up or down a few frets. im ok with this on the fly. in fact last function gig in a band i dont normally play in i got shouted at by the band leader "DMinor!!!!!" as i usually play it Db with regular band. if its more involved tune than that, which has an involved middle 8, think ; forget you by celo green, im gonna struggle .unless someone is shouting out the chords as i go along its not gonna go well for me. take 5 mins at home without any pressure no problem but not on the fly at a gig. if the capos on and the guitarist cant tell you what key you are now in and what chord is now being played I'm as screwed as the next mere mortal.

[Mog]

Never trust a guitard! It's just a matter of doing the maths and practice, spend a month learning guitar chords too.

[geoffbyrne]

I played for a short time (!) with a duo of guitarists who:

(1) didn't take it into account that many of the song recorded were played on instruments tuned to Eb, so the players were using chord shapes as E so they emulated the pitch no matter how weird or unlikely the difficulty of playing the chord sequence
(2) both used capos.
(2) they used capos on different frets so they could 'voice the chords differently'
(4) at the end of the day/performance they hadn't a clue what key they were really in as an E shape at the capo was, to them, always an E, so although one was capo'd at the 4the fret it was still E etc
(5) they often changed key of a number between performances as they were mates and practiced together midweek on their own
(6) The key change was often a surprise to me onstage.

As I said, I played with them a short time.....

G.

p.s. Actually, when it was all OK they actually sounded quite good

Edited July 8, 2016 by geoffbyrne

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Only way to improve at this is to do it - if your knowledge of the keys isn't equal because you play certain keys regularly and others seldom or never, or you always transpose by shifting patterns up/down the neck rather than thinking about the actual notes involved, then you'll have some blank spots which will catch you out.

Simple remedy to start building the mental agility is to play one octave major scale up/down through the cycle of fourths/fifths naming the notes as you do it, but rather than sliding up/down the neck to your new key, play everything using open strings and the first four frets only, and move any notes up/down the octave to fit in this area.

[Roger2611]

I depped for a final gig for a rock covers band in London some years back, tracking including Queen, Gary Moore, Thin Lizzy etc. I knew the band quite well so knew how they played the songs, there was no opportunity for a rehearsal so I asked the guitarist for the key for the songs we were doing, I scored everything out that i needed and turned up to the gig only to find that the guitarist tuned to D rather than E and everything he had given me was around D tuning...it didn't go well! Halfway through the set the singer decided to deviate from the set we had agreed and play a bunch of songs that I hadn't even had the chance to learn!

I am better with being able to transpose on the fly nowadays as long as you can still play the same patterns, something like a transpose from D down to F would flummox me completely

[joey1234]

just play whatever you want if they are not helpful, its then a question of who is out of tune you or them. I would go with them

Alternatively play whatever and call it jazz.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1467975769' post='3087708']
It's amazing the number of people who aren't able to correctly tell you what key something is in anyway.
[/quote]
or don't know when the starting chord isn't the key.

[ambient]

A trombone player friend of mine can switch between bass and treble clef, and transpose into any key on the fly.

[ambient]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1467980137' post='3087759']

or don't know when the starting chord isn't the key.
[/quote]

I know, there was a jazz band I played for last year. The guy who's band it was, was forever saying the key was the first chord. Invariably that' was actually the II chord of a II V I. I kept trying to explain but just gave up in the end.

[JTUK]

Hmm... if he tells me that he is playing such and such chord but from the second position or whatever, that is going to put me out..which is no biggie to transpose as long I know, but he is just making hard for himself and others. If he says A from a capo on the 2nd...it isn't going to pitch as an A..

Personally, I wouldn't be inclined to play with people that didn't get the issues this causes and you would expect people to be aware of what they are doing.

Of course there are advantages to Capos, for sure, but if they don't realise they have put it into another pitch for the other instruments then..WTF..!!!

[paul h]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1467975769' post='3087708']
It's amazing the number of people who aren't able to correctly tell you what key something is in anyway.
[/quote]

Actually...I'm guilty of this as well I call it a "guitarist's key". When I ask somebody what key a song is, I'm really asking what the first chord is

I'm a terrible, terrible musician

[skywalker]

My experience pretty much reflects those above, if it is a song I know I can usually do it on the fly. I started working with a different band recently and when I asked for the key for a certain song I was told "Capo 5". After several weeks we have finally got to a point where we are all playing the same key, but have all got chord sheets sourced from different places which although supposed to be the same song in the same key are often totally different.

[lowdown]

[quote name='geoffbyrne' timestamp='1467977356' post='3087734']
I played for a short time (!) with a duo of guitarists who:

(1) didn't take it into account that many of the song recorded were played on instruments tuned to Eb, so the players were using chord shapes as E so they emulated the pitch no matter how weird or unlikely the difficulty of playing the chord sequence
(2) both used capos.
(2) they used capos on different frets so they could 'voice the chords differently'
(4) at the end of the day/performance they hadn't a clue what key they were really in as an E shape at the capo was, to them, always an E, so although one was capo'd at the 4the fret it was still E etc
(5) they often changed key of a number between performances as they were mates and practiced together midweek on their own
(6) The key change was often a surprise to me on stage.

As I said, I played with them a short time.....

G.

p.s. Actually, when it was all OK they actually sounded quite good
[/quote]


Very funny story.

[EliasMooseblaster]

If your guitarists [i]really [/i]have it in for you, they'll put their guitar in an alternative tuning - perhaps an open chord, or a DADGAD, or similar. Then when you ask for the chords, they'll reply,

"Well, I'm playing E, D, A, B in the verses..."
"OK."
"...but I'm in open G."
"Ah."
"Oh, and I've got the capo on II because it was a bit low for my voice..."
"GAAAAH."

[lojo]

[quote name='Roger2611' timestamp='1467978559' post='3087747']
only to find that the guitarist tuned to D rather than E and everything he had given me was around D tuning.
[/quote]

I think most classic rock songs sound really muddy and horrible when the band plays D tuned, no matter how tight it is.

[uk_lefty]

I've got to gig one tomorrow that is a capo4... You can work it out until you find the internet sourced chords are not matching what your guitarist actually plays...

Played to fill in with a band of sixteen yr olds who gave me 24hrs notice of three songs to play and six hrs notice that they played in flat tuning. Made me think about what I was doing, good learning experience with zero pressure.

[ivansc]

Learn your fretboard properly.
Learn the notes for all the modes of all the scales.
There are only 12 notes, after all.
And it's all patterns, guys.

Google "The Nashville Numbers System".
Yo will never worry about transposing on the fly gain.

[ivansc]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1467980221' post='3087761']
A trombone player friend of mine can switch between bass and treble clef, and transpose into any key on the fly.
[/quote]

Ah but can he do it on piano or guitar? (grinz)