Can I replace my 410 with a 210 and get the sound I want?

[Iheartreverb]

so here's the story. I have a Matamp 410 which is a non ported/non tweeter cab so to me sounds really thin and don't at all like the sound of it compared for an Ampeg 410HLF or Ashdown ABM 810 I occasionally have access to.
I'm also at the point where I'll be gigging a fair bit soon so size and weight would be an advantage but not a deal breaker.

So here is the question, could I get the sort of sound I want from a ported 210?

I'm not concerned about volume here at all. I only run my master vol about 2 (that's 2, not 2 o'clock) so I can turn up plenty and will usually have PA support. That being said, we are a very loud band. Both guitarist use early 70's (130w) Fender twins with master around 7 and our drummer is pretty loud. So it still needs to work in this context.

The reason I ask is I've seen an old spec Orange OBC 210 available with a fairly big price drop (the old spec not the mini or the isobaric). Could I get closer to the sound I want with this cab or closer at least?
My current cab just doesn't handle lows well.
I'm also open to other recommendations for a good 210 that will sound similar to a SVT410HLF in the lows dept or lightweight 410 or even a 15 if people think a single would be loud enough?

Thanks!

[discreet]

Having just bought a Barefaced Two10, I'm going to strongly suggest you try one. Then I'm going to run away.

[Iheartreverb]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1468750625' post='3093031']
Having just bought a Barefaced Two10, I'm going to strongly suggest you try one. Then I'm going to run away.
[/quote]

Hahaha I've read loads about these recently. I'm fairly worried about how they will stack up against the two twins.
It's probably worth mentioning that my head is an Orange TB500

[Lozz196]

Well the reviews on the BF210 are pretty encouraging, however those Fender twins are ridiculously loud. I`ve no doubts a Terror and BF210 will be loud enough, but will there be the depth of sound that you need? I`d probably be looking at the BF410 (or any other good 410) for this. More speakers give that depth to the sound that some equate to volume but its just a bigness which enables to the sound to have a constant presence.

[Kev]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1468753766' post='3093056']
I`ve no doubts a Terror and BF210 will be loud enough, but will there be the depth of sound that you need? I`d probably be looking at the BF410 (or any other good 410) for this. More speakers give that depth to the sound that some equate to volume but its just a bigness which enables to the sound to have a constant presence.
[/quote]

Key info there, its not all about how loud you can get. I would try a ported 410 and compare.

[Iheartreverb]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1468753766' post='3093056']
Well the reviews on the BF210 are pretty encouraging, however those Fender twins are ridiculously loud. I`ve no doubts a Terror and BF210 will be loud enough, but will there be the depth of sound that you need? I`d probably be looking at the BF410 (or any other good 410) for this. More speakers give that depth to the sound that some equate to volume but its just a bigness which enables to the sound to have a constant presence.
[/quote]

Thanks, some solid advice. I got to gigs a lot and see 210 combos all over the place and smaller cabs (112/ 212) but with my experience of trying stuff like that (especially with markbass) it just doesn't sound as "big".
I suppose I have two sets of issues. Will I get the sound I want and will it compete with the guitars. I know a 410 is the answer really but I don't want to be one of those bands who think they're bigger than they are. I was in bar last night and saw the load in for the venue downstairs which was two Marshall MG30 practice amps!

[Kev]

[quote name='Iheartreverb' timestamp='1468756552' post='3093094']
Thanks, some solid advice. I got to gigs a lot and see 210 combos all over the place and smaller cabs (112/ 212) but with my experience of trying stuff like that (especially with markbass) it just doesn't sound as "big".
I suppose I have two sets of issues. Will I get the sound I want and will it compete with the guitars. I know a 410 is the answer really but I don't want to be one of those bands who think they're bigger than they are. I was in bar last night and saw the load in for the venue downstairs which was two Marshall MG30 practice amps!
[/quote]

Have you considered a 2x12?

[hubrad]

If you're looking for portability and versatility, have you considered a longer term rig of either two 210s or a 210 plus a 115?
I have a variety of different cabs, from a 110 to a 115, and take different selections depending on the gig and the band.

[M@23]

I know volume isn't a problem, but Twins are outrageously loud and cutting. Probably better to over spec than under, just in case. I've never tried a BF 2 or 4x10, but they do seem an obvious choice from what you've written. Would 2x210 be an option with your amp?

[Iheartreverb]

I'll basically consider any cab as long I know I can get the sound I want from it and I k ow will handle the kind of volumes well. I'm not sold on a 410 specifically, if a 210 would give me what I need them great. The reason for my post is really my concerns that it won't. And my thoughts have been to over spec at every stage. The last thing I want it a crap sounding 210/212 because I'm pushing it too hard.

Portability isn't massively important. We will always have a van and a couple of hands to help regardless of this I don't want to go down the 610/810 route. Although I could gig with the studios 810 if I wanted

[JTUK]

If they are gunning 2 twins pretty hard I'd say that would be too much for a 210...
You could try and get 2x210's.. or a beefy 212.
I think the Aguilar DB212 would do a good job in that situation.
As a comparison, I think a 212 would be a better sound solution that 2x112, IME...
It might depend on the cab so you'd need to try a few.

[JTUK]

Having said that a good 610 sounds ideal..and in wheels would be ok to move around.

[Kev]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1468768153' post='3093186']

As a comparison, I think a 212 would be a better sound solution that 2x112, IME...

[/quote]

Interesting, any particular reason why?

I ask as I am considering purchase a 212, or buying another 112. I am favouring the former as having two Vanderkely 112MNT's is a big investment, whereas I can get a 4ohm 212 for much less.

[Captain Rumble]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1468753766' post='3093056'] but its just a bigness which enables to the sound to have a constant presence.
[/quote]
Is that like "heft" ?



I'll get me coat

[JTUK]

[quote name='Kev' timestamp='1468773219' post='3093221']
Interesting, any particular reason why?

I ask as I am considering purchase a 212, or buying another 112. I am favouring the former as having two Vanderkely 112MNT's is a big investment, whereas I can get a 4ohm 212 for much less.
[/quote]

I think my 212 covers a gig better than my 2x112's ..but then they are different cabs in terms of dims..
The 2x112's are basically a light weight and easy carry solution.

I also prefer 8ohms rather than 4 in a cab... so maybe your solution needs to be 2x112 as you get 4ohms by running both.
I have owned by 4/8 of the same cab... the 8 was better, IMO. weird, I know, but I'd swao back in a heartbeat.
Having said that the 212/4 is still a great cab.. I just preferred the 8..

[IanA]

Vanderkley all the way... Get the 410, it is a lightweight hand built tone monster.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Iheartreverb' timestamp='1468756552' post='3093094']
Thanks, some solid advice. I got to gigs a lot and see 210 combos all over the place and smaller cabs (112/ 212) but with my experience of trying stuff like that (especially with markbass) it just doesn't sound as "big".
[/quote]

I went from a 1x15 + 4x10 stack to a single 2x10 some years ago. It was an eden 2x10 so decent if not quite boutique level cab, sounded just as "big" as the old peavey stack. I've neither seen any scientific evidence nor experienced this supposed "special quality" of using more physical speakers. IME it makes no difference other than potential volume and efficiency. For reference this was at a time when I was playing in two rock bands with one and two guitars respectively, on of which was the loudest band I've ever played with. I also play 5 string exclusively.

Right now I have 2 BF compacts and using both vs one makes no difference whatsoever to the basic sound other than the raw volume/efficiency.

Hence if a single 2x10 has the basic capacity to do what you want (and the current crop of top tier cabs almost certainly do for almost any imaginable situation for a typical weekend/semi-pro player) theres no reason why it shouldnt sound the same as bigger/more speakers.

Edited July 18, 2016 by bassman7755

[Phil Starr]

I recon you are over thinking this. You keep mentioning the tone you want and the only way you'll find this is by listening. Most of us can get by with a good 210 so anything bigger than this should be capable enough. You have a rig that works so there is no rush. Take your time and go out ands listen to as many rigs as you can and try them out in shops when you have time. Keep going until you find the tone monster you are looking for. The trouble is that all the words we use for describing sound are so vague. Heft anyone?

[Iheartreverb]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1468825634' post='3093491']
I recon you are over thinking this. You keep mentioning the tone you want and the only way you'll find this is by listening. Most of us can get by with a good 210 so anything bigger than this should be capable enough. You have a rig that works so there is no rush. Take your time and go out ands listen to as many rigs as you can and try them out in shops when you have time. Keep going until you find the tone monster you are looking for. The trouble is that all the words we use for describing sound are so vague. Heft anyone?
[/quote]

I couldn't agree with you more.
All I know is that my current cab is the equivalent of a HE cab, designed to be used with a 15 of so,ethic for low end. I really need the "depth" that something equivalent in spec to a HLF. The only thing I can think is front porting?/ tweeter?
I'd quite like a 210 but. It if I don't get that depth that I want. And I don't see why not as long as I get the right thing, I just don't know what qualifies. I have seen the next Orange 210 mini but doesn't look that substantial on spec

[BluRay]

[quote name='Iheartreverb' timestamp='1468749971' post='3093015']

I'm also open to other recommendations for a good 210 that will sound similar to a SVT410HLF in the lows dept or lightweight 410 or even a 15 if people think a single would be loud enough?

Thanks!
[/quote]

Ashdown ABM NEO 210s are well worth a look - and (in my view) are up there with the others mentioned. I use 2 of these (mostly for aesthetic reasons) but, to be honest, one cab would suffice most of the time. I have the ported versions that are rated at 500w or there's a sealed 1000w version (which I have't tried).

[Musicman20]

I'd be tempted by a 2x12. It is a shame the Genz Benz NX2 212T cabs aren't made now, but 'Genzler' now make a similar but more expensive version.

As JTUK noted, the Aguilar DB212 is a lovely sounding cabinet. It is by no means light, or small, but it sounds fantastic.

[Twincam]

Dare I suggest you might consider having your current cab ported. By someone in the know or even having a go yourself.
I did some experiments admittedly on old crap gear I wasn't bothered about and the difference was huge! From sealed to wrongly ported (still improvement) then correctly ported (a lot louder and deeper!) tho it was a bodge job for fun.

But done correctly and well it might save money and give the results your looking for.

Just a thought.

[steve-soar]

I use a Glockenklang 2x12" @ 4 ohms, 600 watts.

It is easily as loud as any 4x10" I've used.

[bassjim]

When i find my self in some rubbish rehearsal room with a rubbish supplied bass amp and cab, usually the cheap "affordable" end of a product line, regardless of what ohm rating the cab or how many watts the amp says it will do, its just inferior in every way to my gear.

The OP asks if the sound desired can be got from a 2 x10 . I can , with the 2 x 10 I use, get the sound and volume I desire from my "upmarket expensive gear" in the same environment no problem, but the cheap stuff just aint got it.

Another thing I would question is does the amp you're using actually do what it says on the tin? Personally I have spent many a gig staring at what is described on a web site as the best thing since sliced bread but no matter what i do with it, its weak with no body to the sound. Volume yes but no substance ( IMO!!!! trying to avoid a whole revamped debate here ).

Mind you if the band are noise monsters, or I need more presence on a gig I'm gonna have to add a second cab to achieve the same effect.

Regardless of where the ports are, my two pence worth is a well built and well researched cab in the more "professional" line, from MOST well known amp and cab manufactures will always get you closer, if not spot on, to where you want to be.

The cheap stuff: you're pi**ing in the wind. It wont happen cause its not there in the first place.

Invest and rest....

Edited August 4, 2016 by bassjim

[chris_b]

[quote name='Iheartreverb' timestamp='1468749971' post='3093015']
so here's the story.
[/quote]
If you're comparing your cab to an HLF or 810 it will sound totally different. The HLF is ported and designed to go very big in the lows, which IME gets very muddy and the 810. . . . is double the size. Not a fair fight for the Matamp.

I play with a loud guitarist using 1 Twin usually with no PA support and I bring everything to a gig, just to be heard. Tomorrow I'm taking both TH500's and both Super Compacts and daisy chaining both rigs. You have to be loud enough with these guys so I'd suggest (as has already been mentioned) over compensating. You say you [i]usually[/i] have PA support, so you have to be ready for the gigs where you're [i]not[/i] in the PA.

More speakers is always better because they move more air. A BF Four10 is up there in SPL terms with most 810's and will anchor and underpin the sound on stage and out in the room. A 210 won't do this at higher volume.