Can I replace my 410 with a 210 and get the sound I want?

[JTUK]

I've had two recent outside gigs where I was 'hopeful' I would hit the back of the crowd with 2x112 cabs.
The amp was 800 but the cabs 500w. I was certainly 'concerned' about it working.

I am not confident I hit the crowd well enough at the back of 60mtrs but I've heard some video on another gig at 30mtrs and I was definitely there. I had plugs in too as gtrs get very loud in situations like this.

For reference, P.A companies will often 'spec' their P.A hires to be suitable to a certain amount of people.
This seems to work.

If you have a wedding or small pub beer festival in a tent, do you want to blast the bar 45mtrs away..?? no..not at all but you want to sound good over 25mtrs or so.

For a small festival stage with dubious monitoring, I'd take a 212 and 210 and know I'll fill the stage and beyond. Then the P.A spec has to be good enough to take over quite a way beyond that.

[machinehead]

You really only "need" to be as loud as your drummer if neither of you are through the PA. The same applies to guitarists although I've never had to ask a guitarist to turn UP.

So any decent 2 x 12 cab and even some 1 x 12 cabs will do this.

Some players prefer the feeling of fullness of sound given by a multiple-speaker rig. That's nice but not essential.

Frank.

Edited August 4, 2016 by machinehead

[JTUK]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1470313596' post='3105008']
You really only "need" to be as loud as your drummer if neither of you are through the PA. The same applies to guitarists although I've never had to ask a guitarist to turn UP.

So any decent 2 x 12 cab and even some 1 x 12 cabs will do this.

Some players [b]prefer the feeling of fullness of sound [/b]given by a multiple-speaker rig. That's nice but not essential.

Frank.
[/quote]

I would say it is pretty essential otherwise your band sounds weak. It is no use having bass that is just heard as being 'there'..
Too many bass players do this with a middy sound and they do this to 'cut thru the mix', IMO.
This can miss the point of bass in the band.
No band will get good reviews sounding weak, IME.

[waldemar]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1468855614' post='3093798']
I'd be tempted by a 2x12. It is a shame the Genz Benz NX2 212T cabs aren't made now, but 'Genzler' now make a similar but more expensive version.[/quote]

But wait..! There's always pre-owned

http://www.bassdirect.co.uk/bass_guitar_specialists/Genz_Benz_Neox_212T_2.html

Wal.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1470314782' post='3105032']
I would say it is pretty essential otherwise your band sounds weak. It is no use having bass that is just heard as being 'there'..
Too many bass players do this with a middy sound and they do this to 'cut thru the mix', IMO.
This can miss the point of bass in the band.
No band will get good reviews sounding weak, IME.
[/quote]

Right, so you say you need lots of cab to not sound weak over 25m? how many gigs are there where you need to have enough "range" to cover that from a backline?

I use a single Barefaced compact (with no EQ'd mid hump, P with tone rolled off) and I've never heard anyone say my bass doesn't carry, that's anywhere we've played, inside and out. As far as I'm concerned, the PA should be doing any heavy lifting required beyond where my tone is rich and full, which is further away than an acoustic drum kit would sound.

I get that in some scenarios the PA is better taking care of higher frequencies, but I'm buggered if I'm lugging around an 30kg of cab to gigs in just in case the PA is underspecced. They generally aren't and I've yet to meet an engineer who says "oh brilliant, use your backline for bass, that's great", except in pub gigs. in which case having a rig that's doing the PA's job is a little moot.

Edited August 4, 2016 by bigjohn

[eddiehoffmann]

I've been using a pair of the Orange OBC210s Mini and I think they are brilliant. One of them on their own probably would struggle against two Fender Twins, but combined they are mighty loud and go as deep as any good ported 4x10. I know you're asking about a single 2x10, but that's the best solution I could find. They're nice and small and quite light too so I would recommend you to have a look at those.

[machinehead]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1470314782' post='3105032']
I would say it is pretty essential otherwise your band sounds weak. It is no use having bass that is just heard as being 'there'..
Too many bass players do this with a middy sound and they do this to 'cut thru the mix', IMO.
This can miss the point of bass in the band.
No band will get good reviews sounding weak, IME.
[/quote]

I disagree with this. My pair of 12" cabs covers the lows well and sound very full. Even one single 12" cab sounds thick and full and I usually only use one cab. Not all cabs are equal of course.

There's no use in being too loud on stage or volume wars start, and that is detrimental to the playing of the whole band.

The PA is there to amplify the whole band, including the bass.

I played at a festival last weekend. The PA company provided an Ampeg 4 x 10 and Ampeg amp. This was in a marque. The PA did the work. I doubt the audience were hearing much from the cab but all the bass players sounded fantastic. Not at all weak.

Frank.

[JTUK]

[quote name='bigjohn' timestamp='1470317976' post='3105060']
Right, so you say you need lots of cab to not sound weak over 25m? how many gigs are there where you need to have enough "range" to cover that from a backline?

I use a single Barefaced compact (with no EQ'd mid hump, P with tone rolled off) and I've never heard anyone say my bass doesn't carry, that's anywhere we've played, inside and out. As far as I'm concerned, the PA should be doing any heavy lifting required beyond where my tone is rich and full, which is further away than an acoustic drum kit would sound.

I get that in some scenarios the PA is better taking care of higher frequencies, but I'm buggered if I'm lugging around an 30kg of cab to gigs in just in case the PA is underspecced. They generally aren't and I've yet to meet an engineer who says "oh brilliant, use your backline for bass, that's great", except in pub gigs. in which case having a rig that's doing the PA's job is a little moot.
[/quote]

1st off..turn up on a dep gig and find out the weather is great and you are outside...so that could be more often than you'd like in the summer and I'm pretty sure it would catch people out in that regard.

But do you know how far any given rig you use works to ..?
If you would be buggered if you'd carry 30kg then you need be pretty diligent about your P.A spec. and know it covers the gig.

If it is a stage gig, you either cover the stage with your backline or you need good monitors/fills to do the same job.
You also need to have had the P.A specc'd to cover the gig.

Some bands don't care enough to do that and that is fine. it depends if you want to restrict yourself like that when it is a pretty basic thing to cover.

[Marvin]

Ampeg 410HLFs are large cabs with large ports, they are designed to move a lot of lows. A sealed cab will never get as low, and hence if lows are what you want they can give the impression of being thin. And 810, well

Top of my list would be the Barefaced 410 or the 610 for tone, size/weight and to be able to compete with loud guitarists.

Although loud guitarists are a dumb bread that should be exterminated to save us all from the defective DNA continuing

Edited August 5, 2016 by Marvin

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1470404229' post='3105790']...
Although loud guitarists are a dumb bread that should be exterminated to save us all from the defective DNA continuing
[/quote]

Crumbs..!

[karlfer]

2 x 112's are strange creatures.
I had 2 TKS 112'S and although the sound was lovely, I REALLY had to drive an amp a lot harder to get anything like volume out of those cabs.

Our drummer always has snare and kick mic'd up.
Both guitards use Blackstar heads with 212's.

Never had any problem with 2 x 112's by Berg, Vanderkley or Genz Benz, especially without pa support.
Try as much as you can.

[JTUK]

[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1470405979' post='3105807']
2 x 112's are strange creatures.
I had 2 TKS 112'S and although the sound was lovely, I REALLY had to drive an amp a lot harder to get anything like volume out of those cabs.

Our drummer always has snare and kick mic'd up.
Both guitards use Blackstar heads with 212's.

Never had any problem with 2 x 112's by Berg, Vanderkley or Genz Benz, especially without pa support.
Try as much as you can.
[/quote]

This is odd...as the S112's were the cabs that performed REALLY well outside.
Up against 4kw Elements and a 5150 driven hard.

I was gunning the 800w head around 2 o clock which was I would say, as hard as I wanted to go... but this was to
a Biker audience of maybe 150 plus. It did ok...

The cabs sound great tho..but yes, wouldn't expect to do that sort of gig with that rig too often.
More thought needed- but not my gig, I'm just depping. I don't get any further involved.

[mcnach]

[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1470405979' post='3105807']
2 x 112's are strange creatures.
I had 2 TKS 112'S and although the sound was lovely, I REALLY had to drive an amp a lot harder to get anything like volume out of those cabs.

Our drummer always has snare and kick mic'd up.
Both guitards use Blackstar heads with 212's.

Never had any problem with 2 x 112's by Berg, Vanderkley or Genz Benz, especially without pa support.
Try as much as you can.
[/quote]

I was a bit concerned about the TKS S112s at first [1] but... they do surprisingly well in my gigs. So much so that I'm not needing much the pair of BF BB2 I also have, and I prefer the sound of the S112s.

They certainly don't sound as "big" and low as other bigger cabs. So... as you say, best to try as many as possible. What works very well for someone is not necessarily what works very well for you!

[1] as you know, since I bought your pair of S112 so that I could have FOUR But I sold one pair on as I realised two are enough for me and if I use four it's just two many things to carry, then the two BB2 would do the job and they still fit in my boot... however they have been gathering dust, mostly.

[machinehead]

A single BB2 will move at least the same volume of air as a pair of TKS 112 so it's not surprising that the TKS struggle with loudness and lows.

Frank

[M@23]

I think saying the tks struggle with loudness and lows is a bit unfair; given that providing tons of either isn't what they're made to do.

[karlfer]

TKS 112's didn't work for me. I found them lacking compared to other 112'S I'd used live.
They are a bass cab. I expected them to be versatile, like many other bass cabs.

I would love to get a custom specced TKS 212 but after my experience gigging the 2 x 112's, it's not something I really want to spend nearly £700 on.

Horses for courses, guess I just like Clydesdales

[JTUK]

[quote name='M@23' timestamp='1470431910' post='3106032']
I think saying the tks struggle with loudness and lows is a bit unfair; given that providing tons of either isn't what they're made to do.
[/quote]

Considering the job I'd given them to do, but I thought it may be a problem, but I also knew the volume would need to be reigned in.
It wasn't and they coped well... And I'm very picky about that sort of thing. I've commented about weak sounds enough so wouldn't want to get caught myself... Etc..
But, by the same token you need to be reasonable with your expectations.
The second gig to smaller audience wowed me... Tone is not the problem with these cabs, for sure, but neither is their ability to carry a band at an outside gig.
Yes, I was very impressed.
So much so that I've a few more gigs of this ilk coming up and a few stages and I'm considering using them rather than my best stage rig...

[mcnach]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1470424498' post='3105963']
A single BB2 will move at least the same volume of air as a pair of TKS 112 so it's not surprising that the TKS struggle with loudness and lows.

Frank
[/quote]

I don't think they struggle with lows, or rather with the lows I'm asking them to provide. Their sound is what I like best from them. The BB2 is a good cab but I like better the sound of the TKS S112 and I'm still trying to find a gig where I feel "I should have brought the BB2s instead".

I have just joined a reggae/ska band as a dep for a few weeks. There's like 14-16 gigs booked covering a wide range of venue types and I'll play the vast majority of them if not all. This may be a situation where the BB2 may see more use. The Maruszczyk P/JJ just excels at reggae and with the Streamliner and BB2 I get a really good sound. I'm looking for deeper bass here.

Is one cab better than the other? In some things one wins in another things the other wins... I don't think either is a win-all contender.

[machinehead]

Look, I've no doubt that the TKS 112 are great cabs. They use the same drivers as some cabs I've owned so I know from my own experience that they must be decent cabs. But I haven't heard them, so I can't comment based on personal experience.

However, compared to the Barefaced BB2, ( also the other 12" driver cabs that use, for example, the Eminence Kappalite 3012 drivers) they just cannot compete on performance.

In the words of Bill Fitzmaurice: "The laws of physics aren't swayed by opinion."

Frank.

[Kev]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1470609753' post='3107137']
Look, I've no doubt that the TKS 112 are great cabs. They use the same drivers as some cabs I've owned so I know from my own experience that they must be decent cabs. But I haven't heard them, so I can't comment based on personal experience.

However, compared to the Barefaced BB2, ( also the other 12" driver cabs that use, for example, the Eminence Kappalite 3012 drivers) they just cannot compete on performance.

In the words of Bill Fitzmaurice: "The laws of physics aren't swayed by opinion."

Frank.
[/quote]

Laws of Physics? He is saying he prefers the tone of his TKS cabs, he isn't disputing Barefaced's claim on volume?

Perhaps 12 inch speakers or that number of speakers are the issue here, maybe try different speaker sizes or 212's? I'm not so familiar with the TKS range to suggest any other cabs they do. Probably steer clear of Barefaced if the tone isn't doing it for you.

[machinehead]

Kev,

Please try reading my post in more detail before posting a reply that gives the impression that you haven't been concentrating. Apologies if I'm misunderstanding. Or I'm drunk.

Frank

[mcnach]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1470609753' post='3107137']
Look, I've no doubt that the TKS 112 are great cabs. They use the same drivers as some cabs I've owned so I know from my own experience that they must be decent cabs. But I haven't heard them, so I can't comment based on personal experience.

However, compared to the Barefaced BB2, ( also the other 12" driver cabs that use, for example, the Eminence Kappalite 3012 drivers) they just cannot compete on performance.

In the words of Bill Fitzmaurice: "The laws of physics aren't swayed by opinion."

Frank.
[/quote]


You must be mistaking me for somebody else: I'm not questioning 'performance' or 'physics'. I'm saying that I *like* the tone of the S112 best, and that they *work* well for my requirements so far.
I'm not interesting in arguing which is *best*, in fact I suggested that best is relative, because it depends on the situation.
I have two cabs of each, so it's not like I'm a 'hater' exactly. I think I start to see what some people are facing when they don't claim inconditional love for BF cabs... and I do like them!

[Kev]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1470612992' post='3107161']
Kev,

Please try reading my post in more detail before posting a reply that gives the impression that you haven't been concentrating. Apologies if I'm misunderstanding. Or I'm drunk.

Frank
[/quote]

Apologies accepted

[machinehead]

[quote name='Kev' timestamp='1470611110' post='3107152']
Laws of Physics? He is saying he prefers the tone of his TKS cabs, he isn't disputing Barefaced's claim on volume?

Perhaps 12 inch speakers or that number of speakers are the issue here, maybe try different speaker sizes or 212's? I'm not so familiar with the TKS range to suggest any other cabs they do. Probably steer clear of Barefaced if the tone isn't doing it for you.
[/quote]

Fair enough. But I didn't mention either tone or volume in my post.

[i]EDIT, I'M referring above to volume as in loudness. But reading back, I haven't argued about mcnach's preferred tone neither have I accused anyone of disputing Barefaced's claims? I simply pointed out that the drivers used in TKS 112 cabs cannot compete with [/i][i]Eminence Kappalite 3012 or Barefaced 12" drivers.[/i]

[i]Surely that's helpful information?[/i]

Frank.

Edited August 8, 2016 by machinehead

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1470657543' post='3107355']
Fair enough. But I didn't mention either tone or volume in my post. [i]EDIT, I'M referring above to volume as in loudness.[/i]

Frank.
[/quote]

What do you mean by "performance", if it's not related to volume or tone? It's true that the driver used the the TKS S112 or S212 has much lower displacement than the one used in the Barefaced 12" cabs, but if both of them can get loud enough and low enough for a specific application then the choice between the two is purely down to personal preference. That's how I read McNach's post, anyway.
Having also used the same drivers as the S112/S212 (albeit not in TKS cabs), I'd want more than one in the OP's application as the guitarists are using a lot of amp. The S212 might be worth a look, as it's probably still a fair bit lighter than his Matamp 4x10".

Edited August 8, 2016 by Beer of the Bass