machinehead Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 [quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1470613747' post='3107166'] You must be mistaking me for somebody else: I'm not questioning 'performance' or 'physics'. I'm saying that I *like* the tone of the S112 best, and that they *work* well for my requirements so far. I'm not interesting in arguing which is *best*, in fact I suggested that best is relative, because it depends on the situation. I have two cabs of each, so it's not like I'm a 'hater' exactly. I think I start to see what some people are facing when they don't claim inconditional love for BF cabs... and I do like them! [/quote] No mcnach I wasn't referring to anyone in particular in my post. No offence intended. But I didn't mention tone or which cab is the "best". I'm certainly not arguing in favour of Barefaced either or berating anyone who doesn't like Barefaced. I'm certain you'll not find that I've ever done that and I've been a Barefaced user since Alex built them in his garage. I posted originally in response to, I think it was JTUK, who mentioned his TKS cabs performance at an outdoor gig and I was simply pointing out that the abilities of those TKS cabs is detailed very honestly in the manufacturer's specification. So you can tell quite a lot on the cabs abilities and performance from those specifications. What is also useful is that you can compare TKS cabs performance and abilities to any other manufacturers who publish equally open and honest specifications. And tone can be changed to a significant extent by the EQ on the amp [i]provided[/i] that the cab can handle the EQ demanded and at the required loudness. Sometimes a cab can be too loud at the required tone. The fact that people prefer one cab to another is only to be expected and outtright physical ability isn't necessarily the main reason for this. And rightly so. Frank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machinehead Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 [quote name='Kev' timestamp='1470638995' post='3107190'] Apologies accepted [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 [quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1470657543' post='3107355'] Fair enough. But I didn't mention either tone or volume in my post. [i]EDIT, I'M referring above to volume as in loudness. But reading back, I haven't argued about mcnach's preferred tone neither have I accused anyone of disputing Barefaced's claims? I simply pointed out that[b] the drivers used in TKS 112 cabs cannot compete with [/b][/i][b][i]Eminence Kappalite 3012 or Barefaced 12" drivers.[/i][/b] [i]Surely that's helpful information?[/i] Frank. [/quote] It is helpful to point out some details about their performance, for sure. I merely objected to the 'competition' angle, saying one was just better than the other. To me, the lower one is 'best' of the two, because it does what I want it to do better than the other, overall. To say the S112 cannot compete with the BB2 is like saying the Toyota Auris cannot compete with a Ferrari Testarossa, when all I need the car for is trips around town for shopping, for example. The Ferrari can go faster, but you won't take advantage of that performance in the scenario in question. I think we're going in circles and probably agree more than we disagree, but that's what you get when you're not discussing in real time face to face Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1470658865' post='3107376'] What do you mean by "performance", if it's not related to volume or tone? It's true that the driver used the the TKS S112 or S212 has much lower displacement than the one used in the Barefaced 12" cabs, but if both of them can get loud enough and low enough for a specific application then the choice between the two is purely down to personal preference. That's how I read McNach's post, anyway. Having also used the same drivers as the S112/S212 (albeit not in TKS cabs), I'd want more than one in the OP's application as the guitarists are using a lot of amp. The S212 might be worth a look, as it's probably still a fair bit lighter than his Matamp 4x10". [/quote] Yes, that's just what I meant. And I agree, a single S112 won't do it. But two, or an S212 might be enough. The S112 is so light and compact and sounds so good... that to me it's worth considering. I don't think it would be louder than a typical 410, but then you probably never push a 410 too much. If a 410 performs above the level you need then a S212 or two S112 might be good. But it may not be suitable for someone who needs a lot more bass/volume than I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 [quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1470659303' post='3107380'] No mcnach I wasn't referring to anyone in particular in my post. No offence intended. But I didn't mention tone or which cab is the "best". I'm certainly not arguing in favour of Barefaced either or berating anyone who doesn't like Barefaced. I'm certain you'll not find that I've ever done that and I've been a Barefaced user since Alex built them in his garage. I posted originally in response to, I think it was JTUK, who mentioned his TKS cabs performance at an outdoor gig and I was simply pointing out that the abilities of those TKS cabs is detailed very honestly in the manufacturer's specification. So you can tell quite a lot on the cabs abilities and performance from those specifications. What is also useful is that you can compare TKS cabs performance and abilities to any other manufacturers who publish equally open and honest specifications. And tone can be changed to a significant extent by the EQ on the amp [i]provided[/i] that the cab can handle the EQ demanded and at the required loudness. Sometimes a cab can be too loud at the required tone. The fact that people prefer one cab to another is only to be expected and outtright physical ability isn't necessarily the main reason for this. And rightly so. Frank. [/quote] as suspected... we pretty much agree and we just got caught in misunderstandings I interpreted your 'performance' post as if you were saying 'pah, the BB2's superior performance makes considering the S112 irrelevant', more or less. I was clearly wrong then It's true that you can alter the tone by using EQ, of course, that's why we have those controls on the amp and/or bass. But each cab has their own particular 'flavour'. Some flavours are stronger than others. If you start with a combination bass/amp/cab that gives you a sound close to what your goal is while leaving the EQ pretty much alone, than to me that's a combination I would prefer. I used to think a more 'transparent' cab was the best approach. But then I found that I had to use EQ in ways that are not necessary when I use other not-so-transparent cab... and that not-so-transparent cab cannot handle the lows other more transparent cabs can, but then I didn't need that level of low-handling performance and when I use the not-so-transparent cabs as the sole source of bass (no bass into PA), the result is really good. Anyway, I'm going back in circles It's not that I'm trying to convince anybody my preferred choice is the best... but a reflection of my own personal dilemma: I have two S112, and I love their sound, weight, size and volume. But I also have two BB2, and I know the BB2 can sound a lot more powerful and fill up spaces the S112s could not. They're still pretty light as far as cabs go, and compact enough that I can still carry two in the boot of my not-enormous hatchback (A3). So part of me wants to say "just keep the BB2, they'll cover all the ground you'll need"... but I get a more pleasant sound out of the S112s [1] and I still haven't found the situation where the S112s run out of steam... so, here I am... stuck in the middle. [1] I'm sure you should be able to get a sound with the BB2 that will be pretty much what I like about the S112s... but *I* haven't been able to get there, and since I don't normally get a lot of opportunities to try a particular set of amp/cabs in the final locations prior to a gig, or get to experiment much during the gig itself... if something gets me there in a simple way, then I lean towards it more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 If the BB2 (or indeed our entire 12XN range) was right for everyone tonally then we wouldn't have bothered designing the 10CR range. Getting bassists to realise one of those 1x10" cabs can sound as loud and move as much air as many typical 12" cabs can be a challenge - as is persuading those wanting a more modern sounding 2x10" with tweeter that the best one of those is actually the BB2 (a 1x12"!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 I posted that I was pleasantly surprised at the cabs I took to a couple of outdoor gigs. I didn't actually know they would be outdoors until late in the day... and one was going to be in smallish space indoors and I had two gigs in a day so one rig would be the choice for both gigs. I also didn't know what the P.A would be as it was a dep gig and they hired in. Anyway, they decided on outdoors at the last minute. Ultimately, their choices would reflect on their band. I never use a single 12 ..the point of these 2x112 is they are only 10kgs cabs..and that is for my preferred choice of ceramic chassis' so these cabs worked. Tonally superb, IMO... but then I'd say I know about these things, IMHO, and they underpinned the band. Whatever you use, there is no point going light if the sound doesn't carry the band. These do..there is nothing weak about them but I don't believe a single 12 would do the same job... if you want to call that the law of physics, feel free. Anecdotally, I've been critical of guys using a single bass chassis up against two gunning 412. .. and I don't honestly get what their expectations were... but the band suffered. The only thing I'd say is that you should never 'lose' a gig because of your sound and if depping you wont get asked back by anyone decent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1470687232' post='3107713'] The only thing I'd say is that you should never 'lose' a gig because of your sound and if depping you wont get asked back by anyone decent. [/quote] +1000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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