Wedding venue PA control

[mrtcat]

We are deep in the thick of wedding season at the moment and all is good......busy but good.

Today we got an email from a venue we are playing at the end of this month saying that they have just decided that in order to control volume they have now bought their own PA. No biggie I thought and a look at the spec says it should be ok (they have some tasty power amps). We however have to bring our own mixer and run sound ourselves. This concerns me a little to be honest. The PA has also been set up with a limit of 95db which ok isn't that loud but our drummer is good and can do restrained if necessary. They have also added that no bass amps are to be used and that only DI'd bass is allowed. This concerns me a little more as there's no engineer.

Now I understand volume is an issue in lots of places but this is a marquee on a farm over a mile away from the nearest neighbour. Is 95Db in a marquee any different to 95db in a club? I guess it depends where they measure from. If its 1m from the speaker then that's really quiet. If its measured at the back of the tent then it's probably biblically loud on the dance floor.

My question is - would this type of venue control worry you? I'm a little anxious about using a strange system whilst trying to play and not having a bass amp. should i be worried?

PA spec and some rules below:

[i]PA: we have our own PA system which all bands and DJs must use. The system will be set up on the morning of the party and has 2 x XLR inputs for you to connect your mixer to (see picture below). The system consists of: [/i]
[i]○ dB Technologies 15" Loudspeaker x2 [/i]
[i]○ dB Technologies 18" Sub Loudspeaker x2 [/i]
[i]○ OHM CFU A3 Power Amplifier x2 [/i]
[i]○ Symetrix Prism 8x8 ­ open architecture digital signal processor inc. wireless remote functionality. This process limiter limits the output to pre programmed Dba. We have undergone acoustic studies to identify the correct limits for each frequency which averages out as an overall limit of 95 Dba.[/i]

[i]● Bass: all bands must Direct input their bass.[/i]
[i]● Lighting: We supply lighting in the form of dimmable 8­arm chandeliers. You are welcome to dim these to your requirements and to bring and dance floor lighting you require. [/i]
[i]● You are required to meet with a member of Huntsmill Farm (Huntsmill Weddings) before starting your music. This is so that we can ensure that this policy has been passed on to you and fully understood. It is usual at this point to perform a sound check and to discuss any issues. [/i]
[i]● There is a noise limit inside the marquee of 95Dba. This is limited through our PA system output. This is NOT an automatic power cut­off system. [/i]
[i]● We also monitor the noise from a number of other locations outside the marquee on an hourly basis to determine if the level of noise is too much (ie. is traveling to our neighbours). While using the decibel monitor is useful some music or vocals travel more than others so please bear with us if we ask you to turn down certain aspects. [/i]
[i]● No kareoke please. [/i]
[i]● No amplified music before 7pm. [/i]
[i]● Live music limited to 11pm, after this time recorded music (DJ) only please. [/i]
[i]● There shall be no more than 1 DJ without prior written permission. [/i]

[JTUK]

It would me..this late in the day. These may or may not be reasonable but they weren't there when the booking was agreed.
If you wanted to pull out, everyone has lost of time on this.

But then, I don't do weddings as a wedding band would, so altho I'd be inclined tyo cancel, some bands would rather just see the money at the end of the night and not really care one way or another.
I don't see that as an attractive position by either side, but I understand it.
If a wedding band and the money is the whole deal, suck it up and do what they want and on their head be it all.

[Graham]

I wouldn't cancel, more down to not wanting to add stress to the bridal party than to secure my paycheck. I would, however pass this on to the bride and groom so they are aware before hand that there are venue imposed noise restrictions.

Also, your point about where the 95db is measured is a good one and one I'd be asking the venue as it should bring some clarity.

[Graham]

Also, no bass amps on stage, but also no monitoring provided?

Edit:

Is this all that's been said about the bass amp?

[quote]● Bass: all bands must Direct input their bass.[/quote]

As my reading of that is you have to DI rather than mic your amp, otherwise my point about monitoring stands.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Graham

[mrtcat]

[quote name='Graham' timestamp='1468869237' post='3093946']
Also, no bass amps on stage, but also no monitoring provided?

Edit:

Is this all that's been said about the bass amp?
As my reading of that is you have to DI rather than mic your amp, otherwise my point about monitoring stands.
[/quote]

Yes I questioned that too but apparently there are no bass amps allowed. I will probably take one of our RCF 745s as a wedge then. That's as good as any bass amp anyhow.

[Lozz196]

If they`re putting down such controlling measures I`d expect them to have someone doing the sound. I understand where they`re coming from, having been to functions where the DJ played music so loud I couldn`t be heard when shouting at the top of my voice to the person next to me - and believe me, I have a big voice when needed - but if they want to control it that much they have to be employing someone to do it properly. And as for no bass amps - idiots, do they not understand how a DJ can wreck this part with bumping up the lows on recorded music, especially todays music.

[acidbass]

My thought is that they should really have checked that this was OK with the bride and groom before you guys. After all, the bride and groom are the ones paying and should be the only ones to place or enforce restrictions on their entertainment.

FWIW I think a sound limiter at a gig is a good idea. 99% of bands are too loud.

[Graham]

Good you have a monitor to bring with you, hopefully you should be fine

[Phil Starr]

That is quite a meaty PA and what they have is really an automatic volume control it seems. You've correctly identified the problem as being where they are monitoring from. The on stage volume of a rock band is likely to be around 103dB and you can reckon on a 6dB fall every tome you double the distance from the sound source. There won't be much reinforcement from reflection in a tent. It could be ok but I would quickly try and talk to the venue to find out. It might be good to get the names of other bands who have played there to see how it worked for them

If you seriously think it will be a problem then contact your client. The venue are far more likely to respond to the person paying them. If the venue can't provide the facilities they want then there might be contractual issues if they didn't warn their clients about noise restrictions.

The venue may be subject to restrictions from the council of course. It can be part of a planning application or an entertainments licence. If the noise restriction is sophisticated enough you may be fine. I'd also raise the issue of monitors on stage.

[KevB]

Get in get paid and get out. Anyone watching that moans should be directed toward whoever made the stipulations about sound and take it up with them.

[bassbiscuits]

That does sound overly restrictive, but as others have said, it'll be bearable to just do the gig, get paid and go home.

I did a similar one earlier this summer - we were allowed amps and our own PA but the noise meter was set so low we ended up playing at the same sort of volume i'd play at home.
Even people clapping or singing along triggered it. It was ridiculous.

I've also done pub gigs where they insist on using the poor quality in-house PA, the (quiet) volume of which is limited from behind the bar, and which just robs you of any dynamics.

Take their money, say thanks and chalk it up to experience.

Edited July 19, 2016 by bassbiscuits

[stingrayPete1977]

So they are providing half a PA then? No desk and no monitors. It would work out quite nice for me actually,main outs from my xr16 to the in house kit,our two db monitors as normal for vocals and drum fold back then our rcf 735 powered tops into the spare aux outs positioned strategically

Is nothing but your main send going to our front of house system, yes.

[Number6]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1468871494' post='3093973']
Get in get paid and get out. Anyone watching that moans should be directed toward whoever made the stipulations about sound and take it up with them.
[/quote]

This.....the venue are restricting the sound so play the gig, get paid then move on 👍

[tonyf]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1468871494' post='3093973']
Get in get paid and get out. Anyone watching that moans should be directed toward whoever made the stipulations about sound and take it up with them.
[/quote]

^^^^ This

We've been reasonably lucky that every wedding we do has been with our own PA. As we use IEMs, I never take a bass amp so using a DI wouldn't bother me. TBH, I'd not worry too much about not being able to hear yourself. I've never had an issue with popping the IEMs out my ears and not hearing enough from FOH to monitor myself.

There are gigs where things ain't going to be as controlled as you want them to be as a band. Yeah, you can be all precious about "your tone" but the harsh reality is that the day is about the bride/groom and the venue, not about the band. The venue will have installed the PA/limiter almost certainly because of licencing restrictions/complaints. The bride/groom/wedding party will have no awareness (or frankly care) about sound limiters and very often the first anyone finds out about it is when it trips. Ultimately, that's down to you as the band to work round it. Those are the rules. Doesn't matter if they're right or wrong, as professionals, you just have to get on with it.

We've all had those ridiculous gigs where the crowd cheering will set off the limiter. These are the gigs where ironically the venue find themselves exposed the most. If a bride/groom can see the thing kicking off because someone happens to shout a bit too loudly, they see that as being unreasonable and not controllable. If it goes off when the band are playing, it's down to the band.

I've digressed, others have probably put it more eloquently than I have . Personally, I'd not worry too much. It'll be fine, take a good DI, be prepared to compromise, enjoy the night and if all else fails, take the money and run.

[Trueno]

[quote name='Number6' timestamp='1468920302' post='3094259']


This.....the venue are restricting the sound so play the gig, get paid then move on 👍
[/quote]

+1

I'd be a bit bothered about not having my own amp for monitoring... I'd be tempted to take a practise amp and prop it up facing me... or in my case do the same with my 12" Markbass, which is only diddy.
It would be nice to tell the venue to get stuffed, but it's the happy couple that would suffer.

[FuNkShUi]

It's a bit of a strange one i must admit!
Worst we've ever had, was in a stone barn in the middle of nowhere, the place had a noise limiter placed up on the rafters, so we could see it.
It was green when all was ok. Turned Amber when approaching the limit, when it turned red it completely cut of the electricity to the onstage power.
Unbelievable!!
We explained to the customers that this could be a serious issue. Dont know what the limit was set at, but i know it was a quiet gig!!

[bassjim]

[quote name='Graham' timestamp='1468869185' post='3093945']
I wouldn't cancel, more down to not wanting to add stress to the bridal party than to secure my paycheck. I would, however pass this on to the bride and groom so they are aware before hand that there are venue imposed noise restrictions.

Also, your point about where the 95db is measured is a good one and one I'd be asking the venue as it should bring some clarity.
[/quote]
yep defo tell the clients. i did a wedding in Kingston Upon Thames where the venue insisted they supply PA . They also supplied an electronic drum kit and maplins in ear monitors. At sound check no one in the band could hear themselves or each other as the sound man didnt have a clue. The in ears were so useless. They fell out of your ears if you so much as blinked. No monitors. The only way to hear vocals was to walk out onto the dance floor as the pa speakers were up in the ceiling and pointing down. Thats just great if you are a drummer or keyboard player.
To add to the misery the venue was on an island surrounded by water (Thames!) and you had to use their ferry system to get any equipment over to it. Fortunatley the guitarist and myself brought our backline so we at least were able to use it and promise to keep it down. Just as well because without it this would have been even worse than it ended up being.
I was depping and so was half the band. It was all over the place due to not being able to hear each other. The bride was devastated. The groom was angry.
The venue having already taken their money didnt give a sh*t and neither did the agency that set up the gig for the same reasons. We had already been paid top whack and we were not responsible for it.
The sound guy told me the problem had been caused by multiple complaints from neighbours but the venue needs the bands to make it work. The venue doesnt tell the clients because most likley they wouldn't book in the first place.
Tell your clents whats not in your power up front and that its going to be difficult to play your best if you cant hear yourself ........but happy to comply. You dont take any responsibility however for the results

[Lozz196]

Good points there, def tell the clients that control of the sound is now beyond yourselves. Insist on your fee up front, then if they aren`t happy they need to take it up with the venue as it`s them making a pigs ear of it.

[TimR]

Interesting that it's only the PA that is limited to 95dBA, presumably the drums are separate to that.

Is there anyway you can pop in and see a band playing a wedding there beforehand to put your mind at rest.

If they're regularly doing weddings this can't be an issue, most people book venues on the strength that they've previously been to a wedding there.

Interesting that they're not providing monitoring and you can take guitar amps.

I don't think this will be an issue.

[mrtcat]

Thanks everyone, all great advice.

Its a venue that's been doing weddings for two years. The whole thing is in a marquee and the site is actually a working farm. The Pa is new though and as a result of a noise complaint from the only neighbour just over half a mile away. It seems they had a dj earlier this year who was a bit of a tool and just wouldn't turn down.

We are actually going to be the first band to play there following them getting the Pa installed this week. I totally understand the noise issue and would be devastated if we caused them a noise complaint. My main concern is that the farmer running the venue knows nothing about good live sound and the bride , groom and band were only informed yesterday of the new rules.

I'm going to go in ears for the night and the rest in the band will sort themselves out monitor wise. Luckily we have a behringer x-air 18 so there's six aux outs and each member can do their own mix from phones. That way I don't have to worry about doing a monitor mix for everyone.

We have explained everything to the bride and groom and they are taking up any complaints with the venue. Im sure we'll be fine as all the band are pros except me and the singer so they'll all cope.

[bassjim]

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1468931047' post='3094397']
Thanks everyone, all great advice.

Its a venue that's been doing weddings for two years. The whole thing is in a marquee and the site is actually a working farm. The Pa is new though and as a result of a noise complaint from the only neighbour just over half a mile away. It seems they had a dj earlier this year who was a bit of a tool and just wouldn't turn down.

We are actually going to be the first band to play there following them getting the Pa installed this week. I totally understand the noise issue and would be devastated if we caused them a noise complaint. My main concern is that the farmer running the venue knows nothing about good live sound and the bride , groom and band were only informed yesterday of the new rules.

I'm going to go in ears for the night and the rest in the band will sort themselves out monitor wise. Luckily we have a behringer x-air 18 so there's six aux outs and each member can do their own mix from phones. That way I don't have to worry about doing a monitor mix for everyone.

We have explained everything to the bride and groom and they are taking up any complaints with the venue. Im sure we'll be fine as all the band are pros except me and the singer so they'll all cope.
[/quote] i would advise if.....you have not used in ears as a band before you try it all out first so you can suss out pitt falls. If you find on the night "nothing in the manual about this problem..." From personal experience BTW on a seperate gig. Was told this would all be great as everyone does it nowadays. Good job I brought my "stone age back line" along!

[Muzz]

Played a similar setup not long ago - farmer trying to make his barn a wedding venue, no sound damping, precious little heating (a couple of those jet engine warmers) and a limiter set to Sparrow's Fart mounted on the wall right next to the edge of the stage. The drummer clicked us in for the soundcheck, and his sticks made the light go amber...

We'd had no notice of this sort of restriction, so we immediately went and found the bride and groom and explained the situation. They weren't happy (they weren't happy with lots of things already, including the aforementioned heating) but at least we had them on side. We offered them an acoustic version of our set, but they wanted the full nine yards, which they got, albeit at conversational volume. It's never good when you can hear people's feet shuffling on the dance floor... It was a twitchy, unsatisfying gig.

Bottom line, though, was that we made sure the people paying us knew the restrictions we were playing under.

[taunton-hobbit]

I feel (a little) for the venue, but they do seem to be trying very hard and only managing to get it half-right. This is the problem when people who know basically naff-all about amplification get sold & told by a dealer. (no vested interest, of course - the amps are capable of making the neighbour think that the army has just started war games in their garden).
It really does need an experienced hand in here - I'm with everyone else, get in, play & go home.
Personally I'd not bother even considering a rebook (They'd hate me, I'm seriously loud....)

[sharkboy]

If they've gone to the expense of power amps and FOH speakers, why haven't they just added a desk and monitors? Sounds like a half-assed attempt to set up a PA if you ask me, and I would have no issue bringing my own back line if they can't guarantee that I'd be properly monitored on the night. End of the day, your contract is with the bride and groom to provide live entertainment at their reception. They should be made aware of the restrictions and also any concerns you might have.

[JTUK]

[quote name='tonyf' timestamp='1468921440' post='3094267']
^^^^ This

We've been reasonably lucky that every wedding we do has been with our own PA. As we use IEMs, I never take a bass amp so using a DI wouldn't bother me. TBH, I'd not worry too much about not being able to hear yourself. I've never had an issue with popping the IEMs out my ears and not hearing enough from FOH to monitor myself.

There are gigs where things ain't going to be as controlled as you want them to be as a band. Yeah, you can be all precious about "your tone" but the harsh reality is that the day is about the bride/groom and the venue, not about the band. The venue will have installed the PA/limiter almost certainly because of licencing restrictions/complaints. The bride/groom/wedding party will have no awareness (or frankly care) about sound limiters and very often the first anyone finds out about it is when it trips. Ultimately, that's down to you as the band to work round it. Those are the rules. Doesn't matter if they're right or wrong, as professionals, you just have to get on with it.

We've all had those ridiculous gigs where the crowd cheering will set off the limiter. These are the gigs where ironically the venue find themselves exposed the most. If a bride/groom can see the thing kicking off because someone happens to shout a bit too loudly, they see that as being unreasonable and not controllable. If it goes off when the band are playing, it's down to the band.

I've digressed, others have probably put it more eloquently than I have . Personally, I'd not worry too much. It'll be fine, take a good DI, be prepared to compromise, enjoy the night and if all else fails, take the money and run.
[/quote]

That is fine if you agreed to all that in the first place.. you had the detail and made your decision.
This is an agreement with the goal posts now moved, IMO, so not the same deal at all.
You could refer this to the people who booked you ...and I doubt they'll love you for it, but
if they couldn't get a compromise, you could be entitled to cancel..

This is why I'm not interested in weddings and only really do them for friends and only when I know stuff like this isn't in the deal.

If you are desperate to take the money, then you'll have to comply.
I'd still cancel if they couldn't reassure this was going to work out well.. which I suspect it wont.
But soon there will be a point beyond guessing and they have to have time to find someone else.
I wouldn't recommend giving this to another band I know tho...so it would be back in their court.