1976fenderhead Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='pantherairsoft' timestamp='1330716937' post='1562209'] It is a band pass filter. When it starts being moved by your foot, or by auto-wah functions it is a filter being modulated. Modulation comes in many forms and is not really a 'effect' in itself. We class Phasers, Chorus etc as modulation and envelopes as filters but really they all come under the modulation 'family'. If we want to classify them correctly then a wah would be a filter and chorus, flanger, phaser ex would be LFO's. [/quote] I understand what you're saying, but the way I see it the definition of modulation in sound refers to when a wave's properties are changed by the action of a low frequency signal. In the case of a wah, you're changing the wave's properties by shifting the focus of a filter up and down the spectrum. In fact, it may even be said you're not changing the wave's properties at all, you're just limiting what part of it is allowed out. It's a bit like the difference between adding or multiplying and subtracting. So if you call wah modulation just because you're changing the wave, you can call ANY alteration to tone modulation, EQ, fuzz, compressor etc are all modulations because they alter what you hear. So in my opinion there's not only the less important question of semantics, that the definition of modulation refers to LFO-induced alterations, but also the more important question that 'dialing down' a targeted part of the spectrum is very different from changing its properties by throwing another signal at it. The signal modulates it, the filter filters it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherairsoft Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='1976fenderhead' timestamp='1330719026' post='1562255'] ... can call ANY alteration to tone modulation, EQ, fuzz, compressor etc are all modulations because they alter what you hear. [/quote] This is exactly what I mean when I talk about modulation in general. [quote name='1976fenderhead' timestamp='1330719026' post='1562255'] So in my opinion there's not only the less important question of semantics, that the definition of modulation refers to LFO-induced alterations, but also the more important question that 'dialing down' a targeted part of the spectrum is very different from changing its properties by throwing another signal at it. The signal modulates it, the filter filters it. [/quote] I got to understand it all from a synth perspective. I never really used the term 'modulation' until recently. In fact before I made a point to start really understanding effects I didn't really know the relation between chorus, phaser etc etc. I see it in terms of VCO's, Filters, LFO's etc and classify them all as modulation - including FM (Frequency modulation) and pushing fuzz into wave forms that create interesting textures. I appreciate this goes against the masses interpretation of a modulation effect, but I'm not the only man that thinks in these terms. Anyway, when I get around to doing the blog post I'll discuss it in terms of both my application and the way in which manufacturers (and most folk in music circles) refer to them, like I have with the other stuff. In fact... I'll make reference to this very conversation! :-) I totally understand your disagreement of my stance on modulation and when talking about it in general it make sense I refer to LFO's as modulation and filters as filters. I save the rest for my own little world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherairsoft Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I should start to get my head into using the terms 'modulation' and 'modulating' in different applications. Chorus is a modulation, a Wah is a filter that can be modulated. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeatNut Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='pantherairsoft' timestamp='1330700147' post='1561847'] Wah is a modulation! Depending on what you have, I'd assume its a band pass filter controlled by expression pedal... :-) LFO's and the like can take some real exploration so I thought I'd work on a run down of all the 'basic' styles of modulation and LFO's and how they react to low frequencies etc with some listening examples... Gimme a week! [/quote] [quote name='1976fenderhead' timestamp='1330712816' post='1562133'] er isn't wah a filter? [/quote] Wah isn't usually classed as modulation, but I suppose that between an auto-wah driven by an LFO, and a phaser/chorus/flanger/tremolo (driven by an LFO) ... well, it's hard to argue they're a different class of effect. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbass4k Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 The current paltry 10-pedal board: [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/bobbass4k/2012-03-02_20-47-13_179_York.jpg[/IMG] I sold my Groove Regulator because I wasn't using it, now it looks like I'm starting a band where a filter would be very useful. D'oh. I don't wanna get one I've had before though, so I'm thinking of importing a xenograph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherairsoft Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='bobbass4k' timestamp='1330722114' post='1562326'] The current paltry 10-pedal board: [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/bobbass4k/2012-03-02_20-47-13_179_York.jpg[/IMG] I sold my Groove Regulator because I wasn't using it, now it looks like I'm starting a band where a filter would be very useful. D'oh. I don't wanna get one I've had before though, so I'm thinking of importing a xenograph. [/quote] Get another GR - They rock! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1976fenderhead Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='BigBeatNut' timestamp='1330721945' post='1562321'] Wah isn't usually classed as modulation, but I suppose that between an auto-wah driven by an LFO, and a phaser/chorus/flanger/tremolo (driven by an LFO) ... well, it's hard to argue they're a different class of effect. Andy [/quote] That's a good point and helps clarify things: When you use an LFO to create auto-wah, the LFO is moving the focus of the filter up and down - the LFO is acting on the filter, NOT on the wave. Same as your foot on the wah. When you use an LFO to create flanger, phaser etc, the shape of the wave created by the LFO adds to the carrier wave creating a new wave shape. The LFO is acting on the carrier wave directly. That's modulation - the alteration of a periodic waveform by influence of another. Modulation and alteration or modification are not synonyms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherairsoft Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Well that's the next blog post written! Modulation effects vs modulating effects. Written in quotes by basschatters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeatNut Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='1976fenderhead' timestamp='1330722810' post='1562331'] When you use an LFO to create auto-wah, the LFO is moving the focus of the filter up and down - the LFO is acting on the filter, NOT on the wave. Same as your foot on the wah. When you use an LFO to create flanger, phaser etc, the shape of the wave created by the LFO adds to the carrier wave creating a new wave shape. The LFO is acting on the carrier wave directly. That's modulation - the alteration of a periodic waveform by influence of another. Modulation and alteration or modification are not synonyms. [/quote] Not quite sure where you're headed with this ... maybe it's a more precise definition in the realms of electronics or physics. But if we're going for something precise, the wave shape [b]would[/b] get altered by any wah (manual, enveloped, or LFO'd). It would vary between a complex waveform and a simple sine-wave when nearly closed. A phaser is (I think I'm right, correct me if I'm wrong) a comb filter where the notches' movement (the notch frequencies) are driven by an LFO, which is not really that different in principle to a wah (a resonant filter) where the peak frequency is altered by an LFO. I think I was actually trying to say something much simpler ... something that's as good as we need as musicians. Essentially, If it wobbles, it's modulation. Is that good enough ? Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherairsoft Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='BigBeatNut' timestamp='1330725473' post='1562367'] Not quite sure where you're headed with this ... maybe it's a more precise definition in the realms of electronics or physics. But if we're going for something precise, the wave shape [b]would[/b] get altered by any wah (manual, enveloped, or LFO'd). It would vary between a complex waveform and a simple sine-wave when nearly closed. A phaser is (I think I'm right, correct me if I'm wrong) a comb filter where the notches' movement (the notch frequencies) are driven by an LFO, which is not really that different in principle to a wah (a resonant filter) where the peak frequency is altered by an LFO. I think I was actually trying to say something much simpler ... something that's as good as we need as musicians. Essentially, If it wobbles, it's modulation. Is that good enough ? Andy [/quote] Agreed. It gets a little complex. I figure as long as the terminology makes sense when explained then it's fine. You are correct about a phaser. It's a filter modulated by an LFO. In the same light many synthesisers have the ability to move a high or low pass filter with an envelope and it's always considered part of the modulation section. Can of worms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxxwj Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Thanks Shep, now my head hurts. [quote name='bobbass4k' timestamp='1330722114' post='1562326'] The current paltry 10-pedal board: I sold my Groove Regulator because I wasn't using it, now it looks like I'm starting a band where a filter would be very useful. D'oh. I don't wanna get one I've had before though, so I'm thinking of importing a xenograph. [/quote] Sweet, another XP-100 user. *high-five* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EskimoBassist Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='pantherairsoft' timestamp='1330722918' post='1562332'] Well that's the next blog post written! [/quote] Keep up the blog man, I've really enjoyed reading it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherairsoft Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='EskimoBassist' timestamp='1330725921' post='1562374'] Keep up the blog man, I've really enjoyed reading it. [/quote] Thanks dude. We need some more pedalboard pics to bring the thread back on track! ;-) [quote name='lxxwj' timestamp='1330725833' post='1562372'] Thanks Shep... [/quote] I love that quote is your sig. I'm having that engraved on my headstone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeatNut Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='pantherairsoft' timestamp='1330725782' post='1562371'] Can of worms [/quote] Too right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1976fenderhead Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I actually don't know anymore if what I said above is right or not, the more I read the more confused I get, I'll just accept I was always rubbish at physics and shut up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherairsoft Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='1976fenderhead' timestamp='1330726601' post='1562380'] I actually don't know anymore if what I said above is right or not, the more I read the more confused I get, I'll just accept I was always rubbish at physics and shut up [/quote] Me too. I've changed my mind. Next blog post is on Delay & Reverb! Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm261 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Wiring a new PT mini tomorrow, will post pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyratm Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 My guitarist now has a bigger board than me. This must be changed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EskimoBassist Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='woodyratm' timestamp='1330731923' post='1562459'] My guitarist now has a bigger board than me. This must be changed! [/quote] I've got a Diago Tourman you can take off my hands if you like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyratm Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='EskimoBassist' timestamp='1330732505' post='1562460'] I've got a Diago Tourman you can take off my hands if you like [/quote] Hah! I 've been down that road before. It was a really heavy road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherairsoft Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Totally unacceptable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyratm Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 [quote name='pantherairsoft' timestamp='1330733284' post='1562466'] Totally unacceptable! [/quote] I've got a dubscope on the way, interested in an EQ pedal (thanks to your blog!) and tempted by something to raise the octave.. Need a filter also.. Not sure what to get.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherairsoft Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 [quote name='woodyratm' timestamp='1330733583' post='1562471'] I've got a dubscope on the way, interested in an EQ pedal (thanks to your blog!) and tempted by something to raise the octave.. Need a filter also.. Not sure what to get.. [/quote] Really keen to hear the Dubscope - let me know how you get on!! So many toys, not enough hours... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyratm Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 [quote name='pantherairsoft' timestamp='1330733691' post='1562475'] Really keen to hear the Dubscope - let me know how you get on!! So many toys, not enough hours... [/quote] Agreed! I wonder how well it will play with the BEF. Any suggestions on filter? The moog was too big! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherairsoft Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 [quote name='woodyratm' timestamp='1330733892' post='1562477'] Agreed! I wonder how well it will play with the BEF. Any suggestions on filter? The moog was too big! [/quote] What do you want it for? Envelope/Auto Wah duties? There are so many now it's hard to choose. I'm Still very happy with my Groove regulator. The MXR was good if not a little too wet for me. I picked up an old Tone Factor 442 Analogue Filter and that sounds awesome after fuzz! If you want an LPF and the Moog is too big it's got to be the Iron Ether - but Tonally it's TOTALLY different as a resonant filter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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