Wonky2 Posted August 9, 2016 Author Share Posted August 9, 2016 (edited) My god, how hard is this to conceive ? It's a great tune. Not disputing that. Many of you play it, but likely do so with impeccable timing, and yes, I'm sure your crowd love it. Most listeners will enjoy both your version and the original. It was a simple point.... I was familiar with the song but had never really "listened" to it as apposed to just hearing it. When I did ,and as a musician typically would, I listened to the bass part to see what the original player actually did...... When I did this, I was surprised at the small but clearly noticeable nuances and flaws in the peice , namely timing and apprehension. I thought I'd point it out as it's likely some here will have taken the tune on earshot as I had always done and would likely be surprised at just how "off" it is...... I can't believe it's really that hard to consider ? We are all bass players here and one of the fundamental parts of what we do is timing.... Whether that's on, behind or crossing over etc, but Deffo not apprehension. Of course I can accept it as it is and have no doubt of its success or ability to please the listener.... Point being, I was shocked at a song so successful being so shoddily played. It doesn't "bother me" , I'm not loosing sleep, it doesn't make it any less of the tune than it is... I just listened and thought wowzers!!! 1664. Edited August 9, 2016 by Wonky2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 [quote name='Wonky2' timestamp='1470762377' post='3108277'] My god, how hard is this to conceive ?... It was a simple point.... [/quote] Which I think people got. Maybe the fact it is such an iconic song means it really doesn't matter anywhere near as much as people think? Or maybe it is part of its popularity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 Well, I put it like this: it's damaged goods. Would you accept a new car with a scratch down one side? Or a cab with a ripped fret cloth? Thought not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interpol52 Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 For what it's worth, I feel exactly the same way about the bass line to Maggie May as a lot of people here do about Moondance. But, in my experience both songs go down very well live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonky2 Posted August 9, 2016 Author Share Posted August 9, 2016 They will do if you play them in time Play them like a doosh and they'll hiss whilst your drummer has you in a headlock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandad Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 (edited) Recently learned this to play as an instrumental with an amateur jazz quintet. I simplified the bass line as much as I could and it took a few practices to get the tempo and drumming right. With rhythm guitar, sax and trumpet I like it and it usually gets a round of applause. Maybe in time I'll become jaded. Edited August 9, 2016 by grandad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I just wanted to clarify something about Moondance and why I make mischief when it is mentioned. The truth is, it is not a particularly bad tune, although it is not a great one either. The original is a badly produced performance by any standards but it is 'good enough' for millions who love the song so why should that matter? My reason for having a dig is because of the apparent desire to link it to Jazz. To most Jazz aficionados, this is like calling Europe's 'the Final Countdown' a Heavy Metal classic or 'Rockin' All Over the World' a Rock anthem. It shows a lack of idiomatic awareness. That's all. It's like those old K-tel records 'James Galway plays The Beatles'. It doesn't quite come off. I am perfectly aware that lay audiences don't know what is wrong with it. Why should they? But, as aspiring performers, shouldn't we be duty bound to recognise what is wrong so that we can move the art form forward? Isn't that the difference between a player and a listener? My digs at the offending tune are simply a challenge to fans of this mediocre artefact to look beyond the immediate and to THINK. Is this REALLY Jazz? Is this a good performance? The answer is No, on both counts. Is it a successful record? Of course it is. In real, it is, for me, an irrelevance. I play it for money. People clap. Whoopee doo. People enjoy Macdonalds. Doesn't make it nutritious. As for the 'we are entertainers' argument; some of us are. Some of us are also other things as well. That's OK too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coilte Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1470834647' post='3108803'] My reason for having a dig is because of the apparent desire to link it to Jazz. [/quote] God forbid that the elite genre that is jazz, should be contaminated by being assosiated with a song loved by the masses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1470834647' post='3108803'] To most Jazz aficionados, this is like calling Europe's 'the Final Countdown' a Heavy Metal classic or 'Rockin' All Over the World' a Rock anthem. It shows a lack of idiomatic awareness. That's all. [/quote] Except that both those tunes are just that. For a given value of 'classic' or 'anthem'. In the same way that, to an awful, awful lot of people, Moondance is Jazz. For a given value of 'Jazz'. Lord save us all from a lack of idiomatic awareness... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I lie awake worrying about it. Your dismissal of my pain amounts to insensitivity beyond measure. You'll be playing Heavy Metal on the wrong bass next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I can't be: I checked with everyone on here first... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandad Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 (edited) Idiomatic awareness is important if you want it to be. I remember my brother buying a copy of Astral Weeks when it came out. Then, Van was just that bit different and he did push popular music forward and maybe broadened popular taste. Yes, I would say he transcends musical genres. Moondance is was it is on the record and freely available for you to play with and around and change it if you fancy. As with any Art form, as soon as you make a rule or say you shouldn't do this or should do that then someone will break it or do it or not. And I think that's intrinsic to it's nature and as it should be. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Morrison Edited August 10, 2016 by grandad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1470834647' post='3108803'] I just wanted to clarify something about Moondance and why I make mischief when it is mentioned. The truth is, it is not a particularly bad tune, although it is not a great one either. The original is a badly produced performance by any standards but it is 'good enough' for millions who love the song so why should that matter? My reason for having a dig is because of the apparent desire to link it to Jazz. To most Jazz aficionados, this is like calling Europe's 'the Final Countdown' a Heavy Metal classic or 'Rockin' All Over the World' a Rock anthem. It shows a lack of idiomatic awareness. That's all. It's like those old K-tel records 'James Galway plays The Beatles'. It doesn't quite come off. I am perfectly aware that lay audiences don't know what is wrong with it. Why should they? But, as aspiring performers, shouldn't we be duty bound to recognise what is wrong so that we can move the art form forward? Isn't that the difference between a player and a listener? My digs at the offending tune are simply a challenge to fans of this mediocre artefact to look beyond the immediate and to THINK. Is this REALLY Jazz? Is this a good performance? The answer is No, on both counts. Is it a successful record? Of course it is. In real, it is, for me, an irrelevance. I play it for money. People clap. Whoopee doo. People enjoy Macdonalds. Doesn't make it nutritious. As for the 'we are entertainers' argument; some of us are. Some of us are also other things as well. That's OK too. [/quote] Very well put Bilbo. I think part of the problem is that you "make mischief" too well, and it gets taken seriously. All you need to do now is ring back the carrots and all will be forgiven. CB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Thanks, CB. I feel affirmed ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sausage Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1470850417' post='3108963'] I lie awake worrying about it. Your dismissal of my pain amounts to insensitivity beyond measure. You'll be playing Heavy Metal on the wrong bass next. [/quote] hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 There's no fun on the forums without a bit of mischief . Could the goal of the recorded version to have been to sound like a slightly imperfect live take , which sometimes has more appeal than a perfectly produced studio song ? Anyway , my favourite heavy metal band is Mental as Anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timhiggins Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 ' Manilow does metal ' is fairly awesome !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 I haven't read the thread, but I love the tune. It's a great jazz anthem, and no-one cares if the bass part is shabby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB26354 Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 (edited) Setting aside for the moment what is or isn't jazz (which isn't black and white as music by its very nature blurs boundaries), let's forget that the tune is popular, and get to the heart of why some here dislike it. As has been said many times, there's nothing wrong with the song; it may be to some people's taste and not others but each to their own. It's more what people who know next to nothing about jazz as a form of music want to lump into the genre. Is it really "jazz"? It's hard to discount this based on the chords or the baseline; it's more like white paint with a hint of green, so a bluesy middle of the road song with some elements of jazz (a sloppy walking-type bass line, guitar doing jazz-like comping). Now if you care little about getting to understand more about jazz then that's as far as you need to go. That counts for pretty much all the listening public and most musicians. If you dig a little deeper you can find thousands of excellent "pure" jazz songs (acoustic instruments, walking bass, ride cymbal marking time, a head then improvisations), and thousands more with varying degrees of jazz-ness. What's really being talked about is where each of us is on that scale. If we are committed fans of jazz with a wide listening repertoire than we may discount Moondance and use our valuable learning time on more rewarding (listening or playing) challenges. If we care little for jazz then it's as good as any "jazz" song. So perhaps it may be easier to understand the slight disdain in which the song is held as a "jazz" tune by people who may not really know (or care) what constitutes the body of work widely recognised as jazz. ... Finally, if we were to discount every song with a bit of shabby playing then a large proportion of recorded and live music would be heading for the bin! Edited August 20, 2016 by XB26354 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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