Jack Bruce (ish) EB3 / SG Bass

[Norris]

[quote name='Andyjr1515' timestamp='1475600063' post='3147301']
No - when tackling MrsAndyjr1515 (or worse...being tackled by her), my middle name is usually more like 'Mouse'
[/quote]

Ruined any more rugs recently?

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='Norris' timestamp='1475602397' post='3147327']


Ruined any more rugs recently?
[/quote]
No

To be honest, since establishing my cellar work bench, the thrill of being on the edge of domestic disaster has dulled somewhat. The other day, I dropped a newly opened bottle of truoil that, in the past, would have resulted in frantic but noiseless cleaning up operations followed by swift rearrangement of the furniture. As it was, I just mopped it up off the workbench. Not quite the same. Still, putting newly varnished and still wet basses on the lounge furniture does compensate maybe a little...

[White Cloud]

Stunning finish

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1475609234' post='3147400']
Stunning finish
[/quote]
Thanks, White Cloud. That it's a nice bit of wood helps...

[Andyjr1515]

Just a slight diversion for those of you who have followed some of my previous explanations of how I personally do wipe-on varnishing (I'll repost a link if I remember to!).

(The "why" by the way is that I don't have the facilities to do a decent job of spray finishes and for my own guitars and basses and - with full prior explanation of the advantages but also shortcomings - generally for other folk's instruments, my preference is wipe-on polyurethane varnish.)

Anyway, back to those who may have tried - one thing I can't remember if I covered in my previous 'how-to' explanations. If you remember, every two or three coats and before the final coats, I lightly flatten with c 800 grit used wet. This serves to:[list]
[*]flatten off any ripples in the finish, that can become cumulative with too many un-flattened coats
[*]take out any dust bunnies that, again, will cumulatively create a hill of accumulated coats around them
[*]take out any runs, etc
[/list]
But - and this is the bit that I don't think I've covered - it sorts out this:


I've purposely left this like this to illustrate the point. What it is NOT is brush marks (actually in my case microfibre cloth slub marks). You could run over this with the finest lacquer brush and these lines would still appear.

So what are they? And how can you prevent them?
Well, what I THINK is happening is that the sloppy wet varnish, applied on top of three coats of shiny and hard varnish, is bonding better to itself than to the surface that is being coated. So it is creeping away in fairly random places, aligned to the direction of the application. I say that because:[list]
[*]it is probably a total guess from someone who is completely ill-informed and wrong (what moi? )
[*]the same thing happens to my wife's pottery glazes if the bisque fired pots have a composition or firing issue
[/list]
The cure is the flattening - in fact this isn't, in my view, a bad way of judging when to flatten. The flattening roughs up the surface as well as the above things and allows the wet lacquer to adhere to the surface more strongly than to itself.

This is the body - exactly the same number of coats applied at the very same time with the very same bit of microfibre cloth but I had flattened this before the coat:


I'll try and remember to add a paragraph onto my 'how I do it' thread....

Edited October 6, 2016 by Andyjr1515

[BassBus]

Eh... we... u....

One of the most stunning finishes I have ever seen.

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1475766957' post='3148614']
Eh... we... u....

One of the most stunning finishes I have ever seen.
[/quote]


Well - that's when it's still wet. When it's dry it'll probably look more like this:

[Andyjr1515]

But, actually, this is dry:


Not quite there, but not bad for the small number of coats and one interim flattening. However, bodes well for the final finish - provided I don't cock it up (which is always on the very edge of probability )

[Myke]

I was wondering whether you could give a little bit more information about how you apply the ink for the colouring? Do you like thin the ink down or anything?

If you already have a thread with this in, could you point us in the right direction. Thank you

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='Myke' timestamp='1475786439' post='3148827']
I was wondering whether you could give a little bit more information about how you apply the ink for the colouring? Do you like thin the ink down or anything?

If you already have a thread with this in, could you point us in the right direction. Thank you
[/quote]
Hi, Myke
I generally use the ink straight out of the bottle. I've done a number of threads - I'll try to find the best one. In the meantime, quite a comprehensive one was the westone refurb I did for allighat0r (Bryan) here http://basschat.co.uk/topic/246859-thunder-jet-yesanother-westone/page__st__30
That thread covers the way I do veneering too if that's of any interest to anyone

[6v6]

Looks great, you must be very pleased with how it's turning out!

One question - what sort of polyurethane varnish do you use, and does it go off really hard?

I finished a build with an oil based polyurethane varnish about 20 years ago (thinned with white spirit and sprayed). It looked good but never quite fully cured, even after weeks I could mark it with a fingernail.

In the end I sanded it all off and re-did it with cellulose lacquer, so I'm interested to know what you're using here.

I'm pretty sure paint technology has moved on since I Iast attempted anything like this, but I'm about to spray my freaky fretless, and was planning to use all cellulose products, but the result you're getting here is making me question that decision!

[Andyjr1515]

I use standard Ronseal Hardglaze or the Rustins equivalent.
I don't think it gets close to the absolute rock hardness of a modern commercial poly or uv cured acrylic finish but I find it certainly fully giggable

[FuNkShUi]

Looking great. Love the finish on this too.
Trying to find a reason/justification for another build.....

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='FuNkShUi' timestamp='1475836046' post='3149064']
Looking great. Love the finish on this too.
Trying to find a reason/justification for another build.....
[/quote]
Always happy to talk about builds....

By the way, with reference to 6v6's question above, Kert, how do you find the ruggedness of the varnish on your single-cut?

You are actually a good point of reference because I know you regularly gig it...and much more than I gig my own

(For those of you who didn't follow Kert's single cut build, this had the same Ronseal finishing approach, albeit on unstained wood:

[Andyjr1515]

The varnishing is going well. It's a bit unpredictable at this stage - I stop when I think "that's OK" . Sometimes that is after very few coats and sometimes more. It is certainly at least possible that one more coat (ie after just one flattening) might do it. This is the first coat of the top after the first flattening:



...and here's the back after the first coat following the first flattening:




What often happens is a smudge, or a sanding mark, or a dust bunny, in which case it will need another flattening and then at least another two top coats. It is at least possible, though, that the varnishing will be complete by the end of the weekend....

[BigRedX]

That finish is looking amazing.

I see you have drilled a single hole through the top from the control cavity. Why just the one at this stage? And why that particular one?

[Myke]

[quote name='Andyjr1515' timestamp='1475790263' post='3148865']
Hi, Myke
I generally use the ink straight out of the bottle. I've done a number of threads - I'll try to find the best one. In the meantime, quite a comprehensive one was the westone refurb I did for allighat0r (Bryan) here [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/246859-thunder-jet-yesanother-westone/page__st__30"]http://basschat.co.u...ne/page__st__30[/url]
That thread covers the way I do veneering too if that's of any interest to anyone
[/quote]

Thank you, I had a lovely time reading through that thread again. Lovely outcome there!

Do you use a cloth to apply it?

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='Myke' timestamp='1475863486' post='3149391']
Thank you, I had a lovely time reading through that thread again. Lovely outcome there!

Do you use a cloth to apply it?
[/quote]

I use the cheapo microfibre cloths you get in Homebase / Sainsbury's / etc - 4 for £2.00 or something like for applying the ink and the varnish. There's a detailed article on how I go about the varnish [url="http://www.projectguitar.com/tutorials/finishingrefinishing/bedroom-builders-wipe-on-varnishing-r67/"]here on projectguitar.com[/url]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1475861067' post='3149365']
That finish is looking amazing.

I see you have drilled a single hole through the top from the control cavity. Why just the one at this stage? And why that particular one?
[/quote]

I've just finished off the routing of control chamber depth to finished thickness before the (possibly) final gloss coat. I prefer to varnish without the pot and jack holes because you tend to get streaks as the cloth goes over the holes. However, I also prefer to have at least one through hole before I route the chamber down to 5mm thickness just in case I have my datum or level wrong. It's a lot easier to confirm the thickness when you've got a hole there rather than using calipers or similar. So, the compromise is to have one hole, at the end where a streak shouldn't be too long or obvious. It's the jack hole.

[BigRedX]

Thanks for that info. Sei basses are also finished before any of the holes for controls or fittings are drilled, so I'm familiar with the concept of doing this but hadn't really thought about why it was done. Also makes sense why you would drill one of them.

Thinking about it a bit more I'd have drilled the one for the varitone switch since it will have the large surround with the position makers on it which might help disguise any finish blemishes around the hole.

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1475875497' post='3149518']


Thinking about it a bit more I'd have drilled the one for the varitone switch since it will have the large surround with the position makers on it which might help disguise any finish blemishes around the hole.
[/quote]
I could offer a reason why the edge one is better....but it would probably be luthier bulls**t

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='Andyjr1515' timestamp='1475855273' post='3149296']

Always happy to talk about builds....

By the way, with reference to 6v6's question above, Kert, how do you find the ruggedness of the varnish on your single-cut?

You are actually a good point of reference because I know you regularly gig it...and much more than I gig my own

(For those of you who didn't follow Kert's single cut build, this had the same Ronseal finishing approach, albeit on unstained wood:

[/quote]

Mine has been gigged most weekends since I've had it, and it's been brilliant.
I was a bit worried to take it gigging because of how pristine it was. Once I got over that, it's seen a lot of gigs, and gone through the usual wear and tear. No problem at all. Doesn't dent or damage easier than my other bass. In fact I think it is still completely undamaged. So it's fared well! Always have comments on how "pretty" it is too

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='FuNkShUi' timestamp='1475910973' post='3149635']
Mine has been gigged most weekends since I've had it, and it's been brilliant.
I was a bit worried to take it gigging because of how pristine it was. Once I got over that, it's seen a lot of gigs, and gone through the usual wear and tear. No problem at all. Doesn't dent or damage easier than my other bass. In fact I think it is still completely undamaged. So it's fared well! Always have comments on how "pretty" it is too
[/quote]
Thanks, Kert (phew!)

In terms of the present one, each coat now is 'could this be the final one?' But to be honest it often isn't. This has just been done and is wet, but the reflections are cleaner than previous coats. Trouble is, as it drys, any imperfections start showing through.


Now then - for anyone even mildly interested in finishing with polyurethane-type varnishes, sprayed or wiped on - there's a VERY important reason why I'm covering this bit of the process in a bit more detail, and that is [b]the fundamental difference between nitro finishes and poly varnish finishes.[/b]

Many of us have seen clip after clip of the buffing down to the final finish. [b]Warning - this absolutely does not work with polyurethane varnish finishes![/b]

The difference is simple chemistry. Each new coat of nitro 'melts' into the previously applied coat. As such, the finished coating - maybe 20 coats in all - acts and behaves as one homogeneous layer. Here, therefore, you can then buff, sand and polish down to your desired high gloss finish.

Polyurethane coats do [b]not [/b]melt into each other. Therefore, if you do need 20 coats (or 3 or 5 or 7) you will have in the final coating 20 bonded but separate layers. If you then buff or t-cut past the final layer, you will end up with contour lines of each of the layers you are cutting into...and they will not polish out.

Therefore the trick is to get the sub surface as smooth as possible and then finish off with a couple of thin top coats that provide the final gloss. Yes - you can polish - and use very mild cutting polishes such as Meguiers Ultimate Compound (t-cut is too abrasive) because that final finish, once cured, is very tough, but the polishing will be of that very top layer.

Don't know if that makes sense but it is something that finishing tutorials and discussions often miss full explanations of - and I suspect many attempts have been binned with people buffing, suffering the above effect and thinking they've done something wrong and irresolvable....

Edited October 8, 2016 by Andyjr1515

[Andyjr1515]

Close...but no cigar, yet.

Looking quite good full on:


...but when you look at the reflection, there are too many furrow lines showing:


What I DO know, however, is that is is quite close. A further full flattening, followed by progressive micro-web down to around 6000 grit, and I'll try a couple more 'last coats'

[ezbass]

Too many furrow lines? You should see my Ric 4003S!

[Andyjr1515]

The good news is that I've probably done the last gloss coat. After it's fully hardened, I am hoping it will be able to be polished to a high gloss:






The bad news - and it's a bit of a shocker - I think I may have to abandon Ronseal

No doubt for the good of the environment, the Ronseal Hardglaze changed its formulation around a year ago. It went from 'Very High' volatiles to 'High' volatiles.

The difference in use appeared to be subtle and manageable - a little thinner; a little more prone to creating little bubbles. But I've come across the showstopper. It appears to be much less compatible with thinning with white-spirits...essential if using a wipe-one approach.

This effect, mentioned and explained earlier:


....always a small issue if the coats were too thick on an un-roughed substrate, seems to happen regardless of the substrate - and to an unuseable degree with the way I work - the more white spirit is used to thin.

I was applying the 'final, final very thinned ' coat and it started pulling away like crazy. I brushed it with a very fine laquer brush that had been in some white spirit and it literally globuled. I had to immediately wipe it off. As such, the above hasn't had the final final - although I think it will polish up just fine.

Bit of a beggar, though.

I will do a few trials on an old body with Rustins Gloss Polyurethane, which I often use as an alternative. It's the same sort of stuff but is a different formulation - even in its lower volatiles version. I think I've used that relatively recently and not suffered the same issue. I'll check it out.

I'll also have a try of Chestnut Melamine - can't remember who it is here that uses it but one of our Basschat colleagues does with fantastic results.

In the meantime, the EB-3 is ready for the final steps