Dragon's Den - Analogue Optical Guitar Cable

[spectoremg]

The guys doing the pitch didn't explain the technology of it. They used the old pitch chestnut of ordinary cables being thoroughly unreliable (really)? Tuka Suliman gave them the cash but there was no-one among the dragons who had the knowledge to challenge their claims about ordinary cables which was frustrating.

[dannybuoy]

Just watched it too....

So they want to convince people to replace their 'unreliable' copper cables with more expensive optical cables, that not only will probably require batteries to power them that could run out during a gig, but will probably be more fragile than the copper if trodden on. Not to mention signal buffering that might affect guitar tone especially with fuzz pedals.

My Planet Waves cable I bought recently has a lifetime warranty. I could just buy two of those and be set for life and have cash to spare!

[spectoremg]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1469999476' post='3102631']
Just watched it too....

So they want to convince people to replace their 'unreliable' copper cables with more expensive optical cables, that not only will probably require batteries to power them that could run out during a gig, but will probably be more fragile than the copper if trodden on. Not to mention signal buffering that might affect guitar tone especially with fuzz pedals.

My Planet Waves cable I bought recently has a lifetime warranty. I could just buy two of those and be set for life and have cash to spare!
[/quote]Totally agree. Like I said I was gagging to be in that room to tell them basically they were trying to reinvent the wheel.

[4stringslow]

Not so much reinventing the wheel as adding too many unnecessary bells and whistles. Did they actually do any market research among musicians to find out who would actually buy one?

[mep]

There was no mention if the sale cost of a lead either. Don't remember them requiring batteries though. Watch this space!

[dannybuoy]

They did say it was analogue as guitarists weren't fans of using wireless gear that converted their signal to digital. I'm not sure how they can convert audio to an analogue light transmission and decode it losslessly, but it would certainly require power to do it. There was also a blue led lit on the jack plug. I don't think LEDs/LDRs would be able to respond quick enough to deal with signals in the 20kHz range?

[EBS_freak]

Psst. http://www.iconicsound.com

[Bolo]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1469999476' post='3102631']

My Planet Waves cable I bought recently has a lifetime warranty. I could just buy two of those and be set for life and have cash to spare!
[/quote]
Off-topic:
That lifetime warranty means the average expected functional life of the product, not of the buyer.

[4stringslow]

Is the 'average expected functional life' of the cable actually stated anywhere? Otherwise 'lifetime warranty' could be cynically interpreted as meaning it is guaranteed to work for as long as it does and that is its 'lifetime'.

[4stringslow]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1470003807' post='3102675']
Psst. http://www.iconicsound.com
[/quote]

Hmm.

[i]This signal is not digitised in any way, and is not on any kind of carrier.[/i]

So light is not classed as a carrier then, unlike every other optical fibre system?


[i]The optical audio signal is analogue therefore there is NO conversion time or delay. This is NOT a digital device, or an FM/AM transmission.[/i]

Not digital, fair enough, so how is the audio signal conveyed by light if not by AM or FM modulation?

Never mind guitar leads, they should be selling into the Hifi marketplace

Still, undoubtedly a good solution for electrical isolation but at £120 how many musicians would actually buy one?


Edit: the Harmony Central review emphasises the effect that long copper cables can have on instrument pickups because of impedance and capacitance issues, which is fair enough, but doesn't mention active instruments that already have powered drivers that completely buffer the instrument cable from the pickups. Or indeed a wireless link that effectively does the same thing, I.e isolates the pickup from a long length of cable.

Edited July 31, 2016 by 4stringslow

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1470007517' post='3102687']
This signal is not digitised in any way, and is not on any kind of carrier.

[i]So light is not classed as a carrier then, unlike every other optical fibre system?[/i]
[/quote]

Not in the traditional sense, and no more than in that sense a piece of copper is a carrier. Traditionaly if you are speaking of a carrier of a signal you would be refering to another signal that is modified such as FM or AM.

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1470007517' post='3102687']
[i]The optical audio signal is analogue therefore there is NO conversion time or delay. This is NOT a digital device, or an FM/AM transmission.[/i]

Not digital, fair enough, so how is the audio signal conveyed by light if not by AM or FM modulation?
[/quote]

Well, if it is analogue, and it isn't by FM/AM, then it has to be by intensity, which would be the same as down a copper cable. However, doing it that way makes it as prone to noise on the cable as copper would, possibly more so as light is more sensitive.

It would seem an odd way of doing things, and the only reason I could see you would do it that way is that guitarists are neophobes, so would magically be able to hear a carrier wave and thus dismiss it.

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1470007517' post='3102687']
Still, undoubtedly a good solution for electrical isolation.
[/quote]

That it would. in a really expensive convoluted way. Does seem very much like a solution looking for a problem.

[4stringslow]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1470008233' post='3102691']
Not in the traditional sense, and no more than in that sense a piece of copper is a carrier. Traditionaly if you are speaking of a carrier of a signal you would be refering to another signal that is modified such as FM or AM.
[/quote]

I disagree. In an optical fibre system, light is precisely the 'carrier' of the signal in exactly the same way that a radio wave is the signal carrier in a wireless system. And yes, because the signal is conveyed by a carrier, some form of modulation of that carrier is required in order to superimpose the wanted signal onto the carrier. There are various ways of doing this but in the analogue domain it's usually AM or FM.

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1470008233' post='3102691']
Well, if it is analogue, and it isn't by FM/AM, then it has to be by intensity, which would be the same as down a copper cable. However, doing it that way makes it as prone to noise on the cable as copper would, possibly more so as light is more sensitive.
[/quote]

But 'intensity' really means amplitude so you are actually referring to AM. This is what I would expect - the amplitude of the analogue audio signal controls the brightness of the optical source, thereby 'modulating' the carrier light wave by 'amplitude', i.e the voltage of the audio signal controls the brightness of the light. This is the very definition of AM.


[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1470008233' post='3102691']
It would seem an odd way of doing things, and the only reason I could see you would do it that way is that guitarists are neophobes, so would magically be able to hear a carrier wave and thus dismiss it.
[/quote]

Not odd at all. It's a very simple and well-proven method. What I'm surprised about is why their literature states it is NOT AM or FM. I'd also be interested to read their claimed patent because transmission of analogue audio signals (and analogue video for that matter) over optical cable using AM has plenty of prior art, so I'd guess that any patent will cover some specific aspects of the packaging or application rather than the fundamental technology.

As for guitarists being able to magically hear a carrier wave, I know what you're getting at but how many guitarists dismiss wireless links because they can hear the carrier wave? . They can't of course, because the radio carriers are millions times higher than any audio frequency and even the most 'golden eared' audiophile would be hard pressed to convince me that they can hear a light source, which has a frequency of millions times higher than even a radio carrier!

Edit: here's an interview with the two behind Iconic Sound and if you listen carefully to the designer of the system it is stated that the system is purely analogue and works on the principle of 'light brightness' - I.e. AM.
http://youtu.be/cQWsECxpBDM

Edited August 1, 2016 by 4stringslow

[EBS_freak]

The inventor of this must have been really unlucky/careless with cables to come up with this.

The only solution where I think this would be useful would be for very long run snakes... but I suspect they are two late to catch that bus as things like MADI and Dante over Cat5/6 must be preferable and of course, those technologies aren't limited to a single audio channel per run of cable.

I don't get it - it's clearly for rich people that go into music shops and must buy the latest tech.

As for he Coldplay thing - anybody reckon he is a personal friend of the inventor?

[Angel]

So one of the 'dragons' got it wrong? Who cares.

[lojo]

So the dragons can be fooled then

It's also interesting than none of the successful dragons spent there time buggering around with guitars during their lives , might be one of the keys to success.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1470036216' post='3102738']
So the dragons can be fooled then

It's also interesting than none of the successful dragons spent there time buggering around with guitars during their lives , might be one of the keys to success.
[/quote]
Definitely!

[Beer of the Bass]

I can stand on a Neutrik jack and it doesn't break. Not that I make a habit of it, but these things happen on cluttered, poorly lit stages. This has a big chunky box with a battery door and power button on each end and I'd be surprised if it was as robust as that. I presume we'd have to remember to switch each end on, and check the batteries.
For a "more reliable" alternative this would appear to have several more potential failure modes.

[jazzyvee]

I have actually had the opportunity to try this cable out at a guitar fare a few years back and like many posters here I was sceptical about whether it would be snake oil. However I tried it out on a really basic non premier brand cheap passive bass and the difference was incredible and not anything you have to listen hard to hear. Everything was much clearer fuller and more dynamic. That I use an alembic series bass which is active and with a low impedance signal path so designed to combat the problems of noise and signal degradation experienced with copper cables and I did mention that I would need to hear the cable effect with my own basses before deciding if there was any benefit to me having one.

[url="https://www.facebook.com/lightleadglobal/photos/a.744431562259437.1073741827.731497853552808/752464701456123/?type=3&theater"]https://www.facebook.com/lightleadglobal/photos/a.744431562259437.1073741827.731497853552808/752464701456123/?type=3&theater[/url]
A couple of times since then the guys from the company have been en-route near where I live and called offering to bring the cable over for me to try but it was never an opportune moment.

[jazzyvee]

I just watched the Dragons den pitch on BBC iPlayer and either the BBC did some serious editing of the pitch or they just didn't have time. It didn't come over as s really great pitch and i was left with a lot queries going round my head.such as:

If they are trying to sell the lead on the quality of the sound, why then have someone playing using a heavily distorted guitar, surely someone playing some sweet toned jazz guitar would have been much better in showing the clarity?
If you use effects you will need at least two of the leads. One to your pedal board and one from it to the amp.
As you undoubtedly be putting copper back in the loop between effects you kind of lose the benefit there and you only need one dodgy lead in there to negate your investment.
Battery dependency which is not an issue with standard jacks.
Could you imagine a stage with dozens of those leads for microphones, guitars etc plus spares and spare batteries. Quite a big investment for someone to take on.

I like the idea though and i will at least give it a try depending on cost.

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1470010588' post='3102696']
I disagree. In an optical fibre system, light is precisely the 'carrier' of the signal in exactly the same way that a radio wave is the signal carrier in a wireless system. And yes, because the signal is conveyed by a carrier, some form of modulation of that carrier is required in order to superimpose the wanted signal onto the carrier. There are various ways of doing this but in the analogue domain it's usually AM or FM.
[/quote]

Yes you are right, I am wrong, it was late last night, that's my excuse and I am sticking to it! It is just an AM system (I assume)

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1470010588' post='3102696']
Not odd at all. It's a very simple and well-proven method. ....

As for guitarists being able to magically hear a carrier wave, I know what you're getting at but how many guitarists dismiss wireless links because they can hear the carrier wave? . They can't of course, because the radio carriers are millions times higher than any audio frequency and even the most 'golden eared' audiophile would be hard pressed to convince me that they can hear a light source, which has a frequency of millions times higher than even a radio carrier! [/quote]

very simple, but very expensive and complicated and thus prone to failure. I have lost two cables in the last month (teach me to use fender cables!)
Obviously they can't hear them but you know guitarists, if it wasn't present on the original strat or LP it is crazy new technology to be hunted down and killed.
Having spent more than a few hours talking about analogue vs digital effects, why spending 100s on boutique effects is better etc.. It's very much in the realm of, as you hinted at, £1000 speaker cables. Voodoo is strong here.

When people won't even use active instruments as the sound of passive guitars are so much better, who is going to buy an optical lead? The only reason I can see it selling is because it's expensive.

[stingrayPete1977]

The future of everything is wireless, No one is going to go back to a lead in the professional arena even if it's made of unicorn hair. It is totally pointless.

Re brand them as heft adding leads and we will see them joining a lime light to a barefaced via a handbox in no time

[Rich]

Thread moved to GD for greater visibility.

[Musicman20]

As soon as I found out it needs batteries, then nope.

[4stringslow]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1470044074' post='3102820']
Obviously they can't hear them but you know guitarists, if it wasn't present on the original strat or LP it is crazy new technology to be hunted down and killed.
Having spent more than a few hours talking about analogue vs digital effects, why spending 100s on boutique effects is better etc.. It's very much in the realm of, as you hinted at, £1000 speaker cables. Voodoo is strong here.

When people won't even use active instruments as the sound of passive guitars are so much better, who is going to buy an optical lead? The only reason I can see it selling is because it's expensive.
[/quote]

Agreed. The voodoo is probably the biggest issue

Edit: as for the tone issues (ie frequency response), this chap is not at all convinced:
http://youtu.be/YljQyirf1RM

Edited August 1, 2016 by 4stringslow

[dannybuoy]

If increased signal quality is the most important thing to you then just install a preamp like a Creation Audio Redeemer, or run a short cable to a buffer box. You can probably buy guitar cables with a built in buffer at one end, never looked but would be surprised if nobody's ever made one before!