Bi Amp advice please

[itsmedunc]

Thinking of going back to Bi-amping after a long long time! Since I last did it, gear has moved on considerably. Hence, looking for advice.

I used to use a stereo chorus that split the signal and then each feed went into a separate 15" combo. Unusual setup but one feed was for a traditional bass sound and the other was used solely for effected sound. Being able to boost the treble on the effects was essential as I used a lot of delay. It worked really well. The speakers both being 15", dispersed the sound perfectly.

Many years later I don't fancy lugging around 2 stacks or combos anymore. The back isn't what it was and space is an issue. I already have an Orange TB500 head and a Barefaced compact, which could sort one feed out. I've also got another head so, I could just get another cab and that would be that.

However, I've been wondering if there's a head that has a single input that splits into 2 separate signal outs, with individual effect loops? Also, a lightweight single cab that can handle 2 separate inputs?

Or, perhaps you might have another solution?

It's always complicated with me but any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Link to Soundcloud. If you listen to the song Maelstrom, it's a good example of the sound.

[url="https://soundcloud.com/duncan-mitchell-7"]https://soundcloud.c...ncan-mitchell-7[/url]

Cheers

Dunc

Edited August 7, 2016 by itsmedunc

[JTUK]

Can't see it being worth the hassle... even a dedicated stereo amp like the SWR SM's only really achieved halving the power available from the amp and they had a x-over in there.

[Dood]

Hey Dunc!

Well, For many years I have ran dual signal paths. More dual-parallel rather than Bi-Amp as I sent two full range signals out to cabinets rather than having one cabinet especially for hi and the other for low.
There are so many different ways to do it once the signal has split, but for my latest band thing, I have massively downsized, which sounds like it's something that could work for you too.

I originally started splitting my signal at the start of the chain so I could have a separate drive path with effects and a clean path with other effects, but then later I set all the effects to come in after the clean and driven signals were remixed (to simplify). My current solution is working very well for me and is a way of getting around needing separate amps and cabs when space is limited.

My current (much shrunk) path looks like this:

Bass > TC Electronic G-System (pedals in loops) > Power amplifier > Cabinet(s)

The G-System is awesome. It really is. It is my 'central hub' for being able to control a multitude of effects but it also allows insertion of external pedals and signal paths that can all be switched by MIDI, or in this case, TC's dedicated controller. The 'brain' section that can be removed from the pedal board controller sits in my rack case with the amplifier and pedals.

In my rack I also have a digital programmable 24 band stereo EQ. It's a half rack so takes up no space really. This is essentially the bit that 'shapes' all of the drive and clean sounds being two channel - an EQ for each path if I need). I may put TC's Spectracomp in there too and that can be switched in and out of the path when needed.

I have to say though, the bit that I think will work for you is that I started off using a Boss LS-2 that allows me to run two parallel loops of signal path, but I have changed that for an EBS Billy Sheehan Signature Drive. Not only a brilliant bass drive pedal (my fave) but it has two effects loops on it. One for post drive effects and the other for clean effects. What this could mean for you is that instead of doing all of your 'audio mixing' using two amps etc etc, do all the audio processing earlier in the signal path. The two sounds are mixed back together before being sent off to the next device. In my case this is back in to the G-System's processor where I can add all the crazy stuff - chorus, delay, phase, octave, pitch, harmoniser, reverb, filters etc etc..

I use a QSC stereo power amp. It's a lightweight one and nominally chucks out about 1200W per channel I think. I'm just using the one cab at the moment, but should money allow, I WILL get another Barefaced Big Twin II and run that as well. Mono is absolutely fine, but there's nothing like messing about in the right setting with a full shimmering stereo set up with sounds bouncing around the room! (Not to be mistaken with overbearing noises from cheap effects boxes lol!!) - on the subject of crossovers etc, the power amp I have does have a whole bunch of DSP on board and is very capable of Bi-Amping as well but as I say, it's not really what I go for.

I hope this helps - I love tinkering and it's a lot of fun! Onstage, my back line doesn't look remotely out of place as everything is hidden from view. I've never been very good with leads and pedals everywhere you see!

[cheddatom]

I used to do this with a bass combo and a guitar combo. Nowadays I really can't be bothered so just use a clean blend pedal and some EQ. This might be a more practical solution?

Otherwise get a small 1 x 12" guitar combo, turn down the bass a bit and run your effects through that?

[itsmedunc]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Quite a bit to mull over there! I'm swaying towards blend and EQ at the moment. It sounds simple enough and I won't need to acquire more gear that the Mrs can see! Any other suggestions would also be greatly appreciated.

Edited August 8, 2016 by itsmedunc

[tauzero]

You could always just recombine the split signals with a small mixer and run them into your amp, if you're not bothered about sending to two separate cabs.

[taunton-hobbit]

I've got a Crown XLS2000 - two channels in mono mode with an internal electronic crossover - bass from left, mid/top from right - it's classD, so stupidly light...good bit of kit. You would need to preamp for your tones, of course.

[BigRedX]

What the OP is proposing isn't bi-amping but two channel operation.

True bi-amping involves splitting the signal by frequency using a cross-over and running each half into a cab designed to accommodate the frequencies being delivered.

I used to run a bi-amped system built around a Peavey BassFex which had a crossover module which could be place anywhere in the signal chain with the relevant effects then added to each side of the crossover. That fed a two channel power amp with a 1x15 cab for the bass and a custom-made 2x8 cab for the top end. The Line6 BassPod XT Pro also supports true bi-amping although its effects routing isn't as flexible unless you are using external modules.

[Dood]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1470661806' post='3107418']
What the OP is proposing isn't bi-amping but two channel operation.


[/quote]

Correct, 'dual parallel', as (for the most part) both paths get a full range signal and the are not split in to LF and HF components. Although sometimes the edges of definition do get a bit blurred: My drive path has all of the low end shaved off to stop it from getting stodgy and naturally, to mimic the roll off of a guitar speaker, the top end rolls off too. Which is sort of band-pass, which sort of happens in three way PA! My modulations where possible have no low end in them but my octave favours low mids and low...

- The OP mentioned wanting more top end for certain effects too which although is only top boost, of course favours HF content over LF. - I mean, I'm just splitting hairs really lol, Bi-Amp has a specific definition and like you, I don't like using the phrase 'Kettle lead' lol - So yeah, I know what you mean!

[Happy Jack]

My solution uses rackmount gear.

[color=#0000ff][b]Bass --> DI box --> XLR balanced signal --> Bass pre-amp --> Power amp channel #1 --> Bass cab #1[/b][/color]

[color=#0000ff][b]AND[/b][/color]

[color=#0000ff][b]Bass --> DI box --> 1/4" unbalanced signal --> Pedal board --> Power amp channel #2 --> Bass cab #2[/b][/color]

For the avoidance of doubt, that's only ONE bass and ONE DI box, using that DI box as my signal splitter. Obviously the DI box can be on the pedal board without actually being part of that signal chain.

Note that the bass pre-amp does not have to be a rackmounted Demeter or Avalon unit ... it could just as easily be a Sansamp or a Dave Hall pedal.

I'm lucky enough to have some very good quality kit, so the only really weak parts of the entire chain are the cables, especially the patches.

Having said which, I'm not exactly recording [i]Dark Side Of The Moon[/i] so I doubt anyone (including me) would ever notice.

[Dood]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1470663596' post='3107442']
My solution uses rackmount gear.

[color=#0000ff][b]Bass --> DI box --> XLR balanced signal --> Bass pre-amp --> Power amp channel #1 --> Bass cab #1[/b][/color]

[color=#0000ff][b]AND[/b][/color]

[color=#0000ff][b]Bass --> DI box --> 1/4" unbalanced signal --> Pedal board --> Power amp channel #2 --> Bass cab #2[/b][/color]

For the avoidance of doubt, that's only ONE bass and ONE DI box, using that DI box as my signal splitter. Obviously the DI box can be on the pedal board without actually being part of that signal chain.

Note that the bass pre-amp does not have to be a rackmounted Demeter or Avalon unit ... it could just as easily be a Sansamp or a Dave Hall pedal.

I'm lucky enough to have some very good quality kit, so the only really weak parts of the entire chain are the cables, especially the patches.

Having said which, I'm not exactly recording [i]Dark Side Of The Moon[/i] so I doubt anyone (including me) would ever notice.
[/quote]


Ah! yes, you've just reminded me! For a while I ran A Sansamp for the cleans and an MXR M80 for the dirts. Instead of using a DI box to split, I used the Parallel Out on either the M80 or BDDI. Both signals were then treated separately and then mixed back together using a TC Nova Dynamics pedal. Again, I didn't use separate amps and cabs but the above would certainly be a clean solution. I like the flexibility of it all though. If nothing else, if it sounds good, then it IS good - and it's fun

[charic]

Could you just get a Line6 Helix or AxeFX and do it all there?

[Maude]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1470664755' post='3107454']
Could you just get a Line6 Helix or AxeFX and do it all there?
[/quote]

Yep, I use the X3 Live and you can have two totally independent signal paths with separate amp/cab sims and effects on each routed through whatever you want to wherever you want.

[Dood]

[quote name='Maude' timestamp='1470669800' post='3107505']


Yep, I use the X3 Live and you can have two totally independent signal paths with separate amp/cab sims and effects on each routed through whatever you want to wherever you want.
[/quote]

Oh crickey! Yes I forgot I used to use one of those too! Oh my word.. So many toys!!!

[DanOwens]

I used the bypass out on a TU2, ran two separate pedalboards and ran one to a MarkBass>TechSoundSystems and the other to a Matamp combo with the bass control all the way down. Running octave up blended on the 'guitar' channel and octave down blended on the 'bass' channel I was covering 5 octaves of sound. It was HUGE... and now I play upright and no effects!!

Was I bi-amping or dual channel parallel? I guess both (although no crossovers were harmed in the making of that noise!)

[taunton-hobbit]

Not quite the same I know, but I'm currently playing around with a couple of Mathias 300watt valves (KT120) into two BF Dubsters, withe the input from my deck mixer split by an active crossover, the high mid/top going to another 300 Matamp into a couple of Mackie C200 - it's very good.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='itsmedunc' timestamp='1470659941' post='3107391']
Thanks for the advice everyone. Quite a bit to mull over there! I'm swaying towards blend and EQ at the moment. It sounds simple enough and I won't need to acquire more gear that the Mrs can see! Any other suggestions would also be greatly appreciated.
[/quote]

Perhaps hire a secret storage unit so that the Mrs doesn't know just how much you have indulged your GAS?