Intruments on planes - sign the petition

[Earbrass]

Here's something that should be of interest to many on here:

https://www.change.org/p/council-of-the-european-union-instruments-on-planes-musicians-call-on-the-eu-council-to-follow-the-eu-parliament

[4stringslow]

Hmm. To be honest, I'm not sure this is a practical request. How can musicians seriously expect the right to carry their 'instruments' as hand luggage when the size of an instrument can vary so much?

I'm guessing that a flautist doesn't have much trouble carrying their flute as hand luggage while a double bassist probably does . . . and, frankly, I can understand why. Airlines have hand baggage rules for good reasons.

[Earbrass]

The US have passed similar legislation in 2014. If they can do it, so can the EU

https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/us-department-transportation-issues-final-rule-regarding-air-travel-musical

[Grangur]

So the price of all tickets will increase so double bass players get to take their instruments for free?

What next?
Cyclists on cycling holidays?

[stingrayPete1977]

Even as a musician (of sorts) I wouldn't sign it.

Why should musicians be treated differently?

I wasn't keen on Katy Melua before and I suppose not having a new song in a decade means she can't afford to pay the extra few quid to put the guitar in the hold but I've gone off her even more now.

Edited August 8, 2016 by stingrayPete1977

[4stringslow]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1470650896' post='3107281']
So the price of all tickets will increase so double bass players get to take their instruments for free?

What next?
Cyclists on cycling holidays?
[/quote]

Exactly. And where will all this 'hand luggage' actually be stored inside the cabin?

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1470651275' post='3107285']
I wasn't keen on Katy Melua before and I suppose not having a new song in a decade means she can't afford to pay the extra few quid to put the guitar in the hold but I've gone off her even Mir now.
[/quote]

The way I understand it, hand luggage allowances for space stations are even more stringent than airplanes. Good luck getting a flugelhorn on that flight, let alone a double bass.

S.P.

[stingrayPete1977]

Well as just over half of the UK have voted out of the EU is there any point signing it anyway?

[Earbrass]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1470651733' post='3107290']
Well as just over half of the UK have voted out of the EU is there any point signing it anyway?
[/quote]

If you think you are ever likely to want to fly with an instrument to Europe, or want to be able to see European artists perform in the UK, then yes. At present, the problem is that airlines have widely differing rules, and the rules they have are not always applied correctly or consistently. Some will not even allow passengers to buy an extra seat for their instruments. The aim as I understand it is to ensure a consistent approach which balances the needs of musicians with those of the airlines. If you are happy putting a prized instrument in the hold and leaving it to the tender mercies of the baggage-handlers, then good luck to you.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Earbrass

[stingrayPete1977]

If the flight leaves or enters the UK and we are not in the EU then you'll need to lobby the UK too.


I still don't like this "musicians need special treatment" thing.

The cheap airlines are providing a cheap service because they know they can fill all the seats with holiday makers and the hold with a case each, I'd agree that you should be able to pay for a seat at full price other than that I see no need to alter the rules.

[Nicko]

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1470654601' post='3107315']
If you think you are ever likely to want to fly with an instrument to Europe, or want to be able to see European artists perform in the UK, then yes. At present, the problem is that airlines have widely differing rules, and the rules they have are not always applied correctly or consistently. Some will not even allow passengers to buy an extra seat for their instruments. The aim as I understand it is to ensure a consistent approach which balances the needs of musicians with those of the airlines. If you are happy putting a prized instrument in the hold and leaving it to the tender mercies of the baggage-handlers, then good luck to you.
[/quote]

You pays your money, and takes your choice. Theres plenty of airlines that allow you to travel with your instrument as hand luggage. Theres a whole thread on here about it. I assume we wouldn't want a whole plane full of double basses or sub-contra bass tubas so there has to be discretion by the airline. In practial terms the instrument would need to fit in the cabin storage somewhere in any case.

[ambient]

It's not a case of special treatment, and there would obviously be size limitations.

Some instruments, violins etc can cost a small fortune, and are extremely fragile. They would easily fit into an overhead locker.

Personally I would be quite happy paying a small supplement to enable me to carry my bass on board the flight.

Edited August 8, 2016 by ambient

[tauzero]

The way the wording has been amended means it is now self-contradictory.

[color=#666666][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]Musical instruments should [/size][/font][/color][color=#666666][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]as far as possible[/size][/font][/color][color=#666666][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3] be accepted as baggage within the passenger cabin and, where this is not possible, should [/size][/font][/color][color=#666666][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]where possible[/size][/font][/color][color=#666666][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3] be carried under the appropriate conditions in the cargo compartment of the aircraft. [/size][/font][/color][color=#666666][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3][b][i]In order to allow the passengers concerned to assess whether their instrument can be stored in the cabin, air carriers should inform them about the size of storage facilities.[/i][/b][/size][/font][/color]

Removing the "as far as possible" means that it becomes mandatory, so they must be accepted as baggage within the passenger cabin, even when it's not possible. Except that then it says if it's not possible, they can be put into the hold. But in that case, why remove "as far as possible"?

When we went to Munich, Easyjet told us how big the maximum cabin luggage size was. Opting not to saw the neck off my bass, I went for the hold luggage option instead, which was painless and damage-free. I don't know if I'd have been able to buy a seat for it, nor if we could have bought a seat for my bass and the guitarist's guitar to share. But the proposed amendment to the regulation doesn't say that the carrier must provide the ability to buy a seat for a musical instrument, nor even compel it to tell me whether it's OK to buy a seat for a musical instrument or not. Oh, and would I qualify for a reduced rate if my bass is less than 14 years old?

[BigRedX]

In the end, unfortunately, whatever gets decided by this petition is completely irrelevant. If it suits them (and at some point it will) all the airlines need to do will be to cite "security issues" and they can insist that you musical instrument goes in the hold.

If you want to fly with a musical instrument, get a decent case for it and put it in the hold. Job done.

[paul_c2]

I'll sign it if someone can show me a double bass or trombone walking itself off the airplane and going down the slide during an emergency evacuation.

[tauzero]

The petition cites the US rules, but looking at them, it seems all they say is that if you haven't reserved cabin luggage space for your instrument, you can take it as cabin luggage if it will fit on a first-come, first-served basis, and you should be able to buy a seat for it as long as it's lighter and no larger than the average American 10-year-old.

[Nicko]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1470661640' post='3107416']
The petition cites the US rules, but looking at them, it seems all they say is that if you haven't reserved cabin luggage space for your instrument, you can take it as cabin luggage if it will fit on a first-come, first-served basis, and you should be able to buy a seat for it as long as it's lighter and no larger than the average American 10-year-old.
[/quote]

This seems like an invitation for me to make a wholly inappropriate national stereotype

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1470661640' post='3107416']
... and you should be able to buy a seat for it as long as it's lighter and no larger than the average American 10-year-old.
[/quote]

Well that's pretty much every DB ever built that will easily pass that rule!

ps: Was that the wholly inappropriate national stereotype you had in mind?

Edited August 8, 2016 by Happy Jack

[mcnach]

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1470650519' post='3107279']
The US have passed similar legislation in 2014. If they can do it, [b]so can the EU[/b]

[url="https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/us-department-transportation-issues-final-rule-regarding-air-travel-musical"]https://www.transpor...-travel-musical[/url]
[/quote]

... ahem

wasn't there a little vote not long ago?

[stingrayPete1977]

Could Katie Melua songs really not be performed unless she had the instruments from the UK with her?

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1470671866' post='3107525']


... ahem

wasn't there a little vote not long ago?
[/quote]

I made that point earlier, maybe the Brexit brigade should have thought about this before voting!? Ha

[Earbrass]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1470671866' post='3107525']

... ahem

wasn't there a little vote not long ago?
[/quote]

Yes, but if the EU and the US had similar rules, it seems likely that flights to or from either of those destinations would be covered. It wouldn't make much sense to have different rules at either ends of such flights.

[Lozz196]

I was chatting to a bassist at the weekend who lives in France. He regularly gigs here so I asked him how he goes about this, and his advice was he always takes the bass onto the plane as his carry-on item. He said that every now & then someone will be ultra "officiious" and insist on putting it in the cargo area but as he said, by that time all the luggage is in there so it goes on top of all of that. His main bit of advice though was that if it`s in a hard case they are very unlikely to allow it into the cabin, so looks like a Mono M80 is going on my shopping list at some point.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1470672981' post='3107537']
Yes, but if the EU and the US had similar rules, it seems likely that flights to or from either of those destinations would be covered. It wouldn't make much sense to have different rules at either ends of such flights.
[/quote]

If the rules can be different between the US and EU as they are now they can be different between the US and the UK, the UK and the EU.

[peteb]

This is probably the only country in the world where people on a musician’s forum would argue that they should actually be treated worse than other musicians elsewhere in the world!

Leaving the EU (or more precisely the EEA) is potentially a nightmare for British musicians, so why rush to make things worse than they have to be. Hopefully the organisations holding the negotiations will seek to minimise harm and make things as consistent as possible between the UK and the EU, so if this is in place it may well be retained. If nothing else, signing the petition may help to make life a little easier for our brother musicians on the mainland when they have to take instruments on a flight.