Given up on the B string

[randymussel]

TL;DR: All B strings are too floppy for me, I've bought a Ray34.


Please excuse the long-ish story but I've had something of a bass epiphany (epiphone?).


I've been playing for years, almost exclusively passive instruments but often been prone to GAS particularly for 5-stringers and something modern-sounding (I'm a Jazz player mainly). I'd previously owned Cort, Crafter and Yamaha 5-stringers but either never fell in love with them, or needed to free up cash or space so none of them stuck. However after receiving a nice bonus from work I had a little wedge burning a hole in my pocket, and intended to get the "right" 5-string for me. So, I took a rare trip away from the kids down to Andertons fully intending to try out their stock of 5-string basses, choose my favourite and bring home a new baby.

So I tried all the "suitable" basses (both price range and to my eye) I could lay my hands on (Ibanez SRs - 505, 805, 805 Fan Fret, Fender Dimension Deluxe 5). Sadly a few I would have liked to try (Lakland, MM) weren't stocked, and I came home somewhat disappointed, my pocket none the lighter.

The reason? Floppy Bs. I somewhat expected it on the standard SRs. I'd already tried one of their Premium 5ers, a lovely bass in every way, well built and sounded great, but the B was just too flexible and pliant for me. I was more surprised by the B on the Fan Fret - surely the point was to improve tension and tone on the B? To no avail, at least in my (admittedly not very expert) opinion, as it was just as floppy as the cheaper models. The Fender Dimension was the nicest, which was a little surprising given the mixed reputation Fender 5-stringers have, but then again not because it was the most expensive bass in the room.

So after this disheartening trip I decided to just stick with the 4, and go for something I knew I'd be excited by. Looked on ebay that very night and snapped up a Ray 34 in tobacco burst for a bargain price, which arrives this week. Every cloud...

Now I am not denouncing 5-or-more-string basses in general - loads of people on here obviously play them and make them sound great every day, and my technique is, to be polite, a bit heavy, so if a string has any flexibility in it I will find it. But I can't be the only one who's had this experience, can I?


So has anyone else had a similar experience with the 5th string, and what did you do?

[Stylon Pilson]

I'm in the same boat as you, randymussel, I like the idea of a 5 string, but I've never found one that feels right. But then, I suppose most of this is a question of familiarity - we get used to how a 4-string feels, and so the low B just feels different. Not necessarily better or worse, just unfamiliar. I guess you just have to decide whether the additional range and flexibility of a low B justifies the period of adjustment.

S.P.

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1470673780' post='3107547']
Go to Bass Direct and try out some Lull's and Roscoe's.
[/quote]

And Dingwalls. The scale length goes from 34in (G) to 37in (B). They are not cheap, so worth looking out for used. Dood of this parish is currently selling [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/286222-dingwall-ab1-xxx-3x-five-string/page__hl__dingwall"]this one[/url]:

Edited August 8, 2016 by JapanAxe

[randymussel]

Sadly Lulls, Roscoes and Dingwalls are mostly a bit above my means (and frankly, too good an instrument for my ability!) although I was tempted by the Combustion in the for sale section. The extended scale length seems like it should do the trick and perhaps it does in those cases, but not on the SR fan fret I tried.

Its not been about getting used to the extra string either - I have owned and played low B strings quite happily. I also appreciate the flexibility it offers besides simply the lower notes, but to move around the neck too. The problem is the lower tension on the string and the way the notes sound as a result.

I really [i]wanted[/i] to like one! I just didn't find the right one. Yet.

[HazBeen]

Don't take this the wrong way as I am not intending to judge or attack, but you are clearly playing too hard. Sure a 34" scale will be a little floppier than 35" and above and a higher string gauge .130 or even .135 will be a little less floppy than a .125 B but all pretty marginal differences tension wise.

Maybe put a light gauge set on your 4 for a while and when you are used to the lower tension try a 5 again? You just adjust like you would with increased string spacing, action, scale etc on a 4.

[BigRedX]

Unfortunately IME there are no cheap and good 5-string basses. There's more to making a good 5-string than simply widening the neck and pickups and adding an extra bridge saddle and machine head, which is all the cheaper end of the market does.

Even if they are currently out of your price range, go to a specialist bass shop such as Bass Direct, Bass Gear or The Gallery and try some around the £2k mark. Then you'll see why you've been unsatisfied with the budget end of the market.

[Paul S]

I would recommend trying a Musicman 5 string of some sort - Stingray or Sterling - before writing off 5 strings.

I am new to the world of 5 strings. I had tried before but, like you, found the flabby B string not much use plus I never got beyond the extra string doing my head in. But that was a while back - never say never - I recently bought a Hohner B2V and discovered that I could get on with one as long as it was light and had narrow string spacing. However I wasn't happy enough with the Hohner for the band I intend it for - the B was still weak - so after considering various options and getting some great advice on here, I snapped up a lighter-than-average Musicman Sterling 5 that was for sale in the classifieds. And I am so glad I did - it wasn't exactly a bargain price but it was worth every single penny. A world of difference in the whole bass but most especially the B string, which is tight and growly just like the rest of the bass. I once had a SBMM SB14, so the 4 string Sterling in the series down from the 'proper' MM range and similar to your Ray34, and it was very good - but not a patch on this.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Paul S

[Graham]

That fan fret Ibanez only goes down to 35.5" on the low B, rather than the 37" of most Dingwalls, so in the future it might be worth checking out the cheaper Combustion range.

That said, you sound happy with your Ray, so all good there

[Woodinblack]

I am not obviously that fussy, as I never really had much of an issue with a 5 string B. Some are floppier than others, but I have never found one that gave me an issue. I have the Fan fret ibanez and a 1605 ibanez (actually doesn't really feel much of a difference between the B strings). I have a BTB with a longer scale length, but don't really notice much of a difference there, and I don't really like it so I can't really say.

I have had a combustion, and I have played the more expensive dingwalls, and the B is pretty good on those, but not that much noticeably less flappy - possibly the main difference on that was the evenness across the strings - actually was probably one of the nicer necks, but sadly not the nicer sound so that went too. The 5 string ACG was pretty good.
TBH, out of all of them the firmest in the G&L L2500, which I didn't like when I first got it but am definitely warming too.

I do notice more of a change between strings than between basses though.

Maybe I just don't notice it because it doesn't really affect me?

[JTUK]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1470679383' post='3107615']
Unfortunately IME there are no cheap and good 5-string basses. There's more to making a good 5-string than simply widening the neck and pickups and adding an extra bridge saddle and machine head, which is all the cheaper end of the market does.

Even if they are currently out of your price range, go to a specialist bass shop such as Bass Direct, Bass Gear or The Gallery and try some around the £2k mark. Then you'll see why you've been unsatisfied with the budget end of the market.
[/quote]

Yep...agree.

[Dood]

Choose a decent sounding 5 string, then up the gauge of the B string. Am I the only person who thought this? - Or, if it is STILL a problem them get someone like Newtone to custom make higher tension strings?

D'Addario offer some truly awesome tension/gauge resources and I would highly recommend checking those out. D'Addario also offer a wide range of off the shelf strings that can be interchanged to meet your needs of..err... un-floppiness.

To put it in to context, I have a 34" scale bass that is tuned down to F# below B. Yup, if you think a B is floppy then try a bad set up at that tuning lol. So, the instrument is a premium custom. The way to get that note sounding AND tension? I use a 183 gauge custom wound string. Another tone down for an octave below a four string, a 190 at the ready.

[Musicman20]

I have a fair few Musicman basses. The B strings are tight and defined. It was night and day versus the much slacker Lakland B string feel.

[Delberthot]

When I played a 5 string I always used [url="http://www.daddario.com/DADProductDetail.Page?ActiveID=3769&productid=142&productname=EXL165_5_Nickel_Wound_5_String_Bass__Custom_Light__45_135__Long_Scale"]D'addario 165-5[/url] strings which come with a 135 B string and this is only marginally lower tension than the E

[chris_b]

[quote name='randymussel' timestamp='1470676025' post='3107567']
Sadly Lulls, Roscoes and Dingwalls are mostly a bit above my means (and frankly, too good an instrument for my ability!)
[/quote]

Look for a Lakland 55-01. The last time I looked there were a couple of reasonably priced Lakland 5ers in the classifieds.

Come to the SE Bass Bash in Addlestone 24th Sept. You can checkout a lot of basses there.

If you find a bass you like that's "too good" it's up to you to get better and even out the imbalance.

[randymussel]

[quote name='HazBeen' timestamp='1470677883' post='3107595']
Don't take this the wrong way as I am not intending to judge or attack, but you are clearly playing too hard. Sure a 34" scale will be a little floppier than 35" and above and a higher string gauge .130 or even .135 will be a little less floppy than a .125 B but all pretty marginal differences tension wise.

Maybe put a light gauge set on your 4 for a while and when you are used to the lower tension try a 5 again? You just adjust like you would with increased string spacing, action, scale etc on a 4.
[/quote]

I'll take this in the right spirit! I have thought about this myself - I did once use someone else's bass at a venue after they had sound-checked, and the increase in volume when I began playing was noticeable to me, to the other player, and to the sound man. Perhaps its a legacy of growing up playing along with Flea - I love the sounds you can get from the instrument by digging in. I could probably do with refining my technique a bit though.

[randymussel]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1470679383' post='3107615']
Unfortunately IME there are no cheap and good 5-string basses. There's more to making a good 5-string than simply widening the neck and pickups and adding an extra bridge saddle and machine head, which is all the cheaper end of the market does.

Even if they are currently out of your price range, go to a specialist bass shop such as Bass Direct, Bass Gear or The Gallery and try some around the £2k mark. Then you'll see why you've been unsatisfied with the budget end of the market.
[/quote]

I like this suggestion, as it appeals to my high level of quality tolerance and discernment of well-made instruments, and doesn't require me to change my plucking technique! I hadn't begun to appreciate the level of difference in engineering until this weekend, as I hadn't before played very many instruments even in the £500+ price range.

However it also means I may have to stick with 4-strings as until (and if) I am ever in a position to require a pro-level instrument I probably won't be spending £2k on a bass.

[CamdenRob]

I've got a .145 on my Wal at the moment... its like a suspension bridge cable... great tone and tension though

[randymussel]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1470686352' post='3107697']
Choose a decent sounding 5 string, then up the gauge of the B string. Am I the only person who thought this? - Or, if it is STILL a problem them get someone like Newtone to custom make higher tension strings?

D'Addario offer some truly awesome tension/gauge resources and I would highly recommend checking those out. D'Addario also offer a wide range of off the shelf strings that can be interchanged to meet your needs of..err... un-floppiness.

To put it in to context, I have a 34" scale bass that is tuned down to F# below B. Yup, if you think a B is floppy then try a bad set up at that tuning lol. So, the instrument is a premium custom. The way to get that note sounding AND tension? I use a 183 gauge custom wound string. Another tone down for an octave below a four string, a 190 at the ready.
[/quote]

That does make sense, and I did wonder about the gauge of the strings I tried - I find most basses are strung a bit light for me off the shelf.

But I can't even imagine what a low F# sounds like - literally - in a live situation. I guess its as much a [i]feeling[/i] as a hearing , and that it asks even more questions about the adequacy of your amp & cab as well as your bass.

[xroads]

[quote name='HazBeen' timestamp='1470677883' post='3107595']
Don't take this the wrong way as I am not intending to judge or attack, but you are clearly playing too hard. Sure a 34" scale will be a little floppier than 35" and above and a higher string gauge .130 or even .135 will be a little less floppy than a .125 B but all pretty marginal differences tension wise.

Maybe put a light gauge set on your 4 for a while and when you are used to the lower tension try a 5 again? You just adjust like you would with increased string spacing, action, scale etc on a 4.
[/quote]

When I started using 5-string basses a few years back I had the same problem - and found that I simply dig in too much. The B-string on any bass felt too loose and floppy,
no matter what bass I tried. Again, I ahve since adjusted my right hand technique, and the B-string is now as normal as any string on the bass.

[LewisK1975]

[quote name='Delberthot' timestamp='1470692946' post='3107780']
When I played a 5 string I always used [url="http://www.daddario.com/DADProductDetail.Page?ActiveID=3769&productid=142&productname=EXL165_5_Nickel_Wound_5_String_Bass__Custom_Light__45_135__Long_Scale"]D'addario 165-5[/url] strings which come with a 135 B string and this is only marginally lower tension than the E
[/quote]

Yep - same here, when I was using a 5 string (I had a sandberg VM5) these are the strings I put on and had no trouble with floppy B's. Great strings and the non-tapered .135 makes a real difference.

Personally I think the real difference between a good and not so good 5 string is whether it's been made as a 5-string from the start, or a 4 string design which has been worked around to include the 5th string, if that makes sense.

The 6-bolt neck joint on the Sandberg, combined with a high mass bridge, a very stable, stiff neck, and the .135 string made a very nice combination..

[BigRedX]

[quote name='LewisK1975' timestamp='1470727787' post='3107892']
Yep - same here, when I was using a 5 string (I had a sandberg VM5) these are the strings I put on and had no trouble with floppy B's. Great strings and the non-tapered .135 makes a real difference.
[/quote]

And this is why it's just as important to find the right strings for your 5-string bass. For my Gus basses a tapered low B is an absolute necessity it getting s decent feel and sound.

[GrammeFriday]

[quote name='LewisK1975' timestamp='1470727787' post='3107892']
Yep - same here, when I was using a 5 string (I had a sandberg VM5) these are the strings I put on and had no trouble with floppy B's. Great strings and the non-tapered .135 makes a real difference.

Personally I think the real difference between a good and not so good 5 string is whether it's been made as a 5-string from the start, or a 4 string design which has been worked around to include the 5th string, if that makes sense.

The 6-bolt neck joint on the Sandberg, combined with a high mass bridge, a very stable, stiff neck, and the .135 string made a very nice combination..
[/quote]

Amen to all of that - I also have a Sandberg VM5 strung with D'Addario EXL 1655s, and the B string is superb.

Out of interest, what was the Cort you used to have? I have a Cort A6 and the B string on that is even better than the Sandberg - in fact, it is the best B string I've ever had on any of the basses I have owned, including a USA MTD, even though it is only a 34 scale and not a 35. (My theory is that it is because the A6 has a neck-through rather than a bolt-on construction, but maybe I just got lucky with this one.)

[GrammeFriday]

PS I should say that my Sandberg is also 34 scale. I used to think scale length was key to getting a taut B string but now know better - as LewisK says above, it's all about the construction.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1470731673' post='3107911']
PS I should say that my Sandberg is also 34 scale. I used to think scale length was key to getting a taut B string but now know better - as LewisK says above, it's all about the construction.
[/quote]

This is exactly right. It doesn't matter whether it is 34 or 35 or beyond. A well constructed bass, made and designed as a 5 string and not just a 4 string with a few extra bits on it, (like the older Fenders) will make a massive difference. As I said above, I've played perhaps 4 or 5 Lakland 5 sting basses and as much as I like them aesthetically, the B strings sounded too woofy and muddy...no matter what I did. I think one advantage of the Musicman humbucker is that the 5 string version really does enhance the tone of the B, making it sound even....the whole bass sounds 'together'....hence despite liking Musicman before hand, I knew when I was venturing into their 5 string basses that they were one of the leading industry standards for a 5 string bass for many years. Nowadays, there is more choice, e.g. Sadowsky if you want a nice Jazz, or Sandberg if you want a more individual take on a Jazz, etc.

You could pick up a second hand Stingray 5 for under a grand.

[randymussel]

[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1470731517' post='3107909']
Amen to all of that - I also have a Sandberg VM5 strung with D'Addario EXL 1655s, and the B string is superb.

Out of interest, what was the Cort you used to have? I have a Cort A6 and the B string on that is even better than the Sandberg - in fact, it is the best B string I've ever had on any of the basses I have owned, including a USA MTD, even though it is only a 34 scale and not a 35. (My theory is that it is because the A6 has a neck-through rather than a bolt-on construction, but maybe I just got lucky with this one.)
[/quote]

My Cort was a C5H, so same shape but a different beast to the A5/6 I believe. Bolt-on, 34" scale. Modern-sounding and versatile but I didn't fall in love with it - I bought it for a particular band that ended a couple of years ago.