That Victor Wooten bloke, he's rubbish, he is. There, I said it!

[TrevorR]

Well, there's the "clickbait" title out of the way...

It's funny. This post has been bubbling up in me over the last few weeks, months even. And I guess that the email which popped into my inbox today announcing that VW was the latest featured bassist in the SBL Podcast kinda acted as the impetus.

No, let's get one thing straight. Mr Wooten is clearly anything BUT rubbish, his mastery of the bass is undeniable. He has taken his bass playing technique into areas which I can barely imagine and could never ever aspire to. However, however much I try (and believe me over the years I actually have tried repeatedly) I've never failed to find his playing a passion-killing combination if "incredibly impressive" and "very very dull". In particular his solo playing. Very impressive. Very, very impressive but, for me immensely boring and quite often rather un-musical to my ears.

Can't argue with the impressiveness. Thing is, I rarely ever sit down to listen to music with the intention of being impressed. I'll listen to it for pretty much any other reason. And it's not that I'm anti technique - some of my favourite players have immense technical expertise and ability - off the top of my head Michael Manring, Abe Laboriel and Steve Lawson spring to mind but I love the music that they make and it seems to me watching or listening to them that the technique, expertise and ability serve as a vehicle for the music they make. And the emotional content they infuse their music with. Watching and listening to Wooten it always feels the other way around, musical notes in service of a display of technique. To me anyway.

Then there's his Flecktones playing which again feels to me like perfectly efficient and effective professional standard bass playing interspersed with short "stunt bass" interludes.

How else can I describe how I feel about VW's playing in another form? Well, watching the world "Keepie-Uppie" champion breaking another world record is very impressive... I'd much rather watch a classic 1970s Brazil vs Holland match with Pele and Cruyff squaring up against each other.

What do you guys think?

[ambient]

His technique is phenomenal, he's one of those musicians along with Marcus Miller and probably Richard Bona that bass players are maybe meant to like. I'm not a fan either though, to be honest.

I'm an odd bassist in that I'm not into funk or groove 😊.

[molan]

I've seen him in a 'backing band' for Bootsy and he was a complete funk God

He's also a genuinely nice bloke, once asked me very politely if he could have a go on one of my basses, lol.

[Japhet]

I think he falls into the category of 'innovator', and as such, a lot of what he does can be inaccessible. Many have gone before him - Dylan, Hendrix and Zappa to name a few, who pushed the envelope like never before. I think that Victor Wooten has been very important in pushing bass playing forward and knowing no boundaries for what, for decades, has been a background instrument.

[zbd1960]

I wonder if it's the same issue you get with a lot of modern classical soloists? Technically fantastic with stupendous virtuosity, but somehow lacking in 'musicality'? (I know, I know - defining that is not easy.)

[Grangur]

Mrs G and I went to his recent London gig. It was the second time we'd been to see him.

This time we had a treat to see Janek Gwizdala on stage with him; both in a dual for the lead role, with Anthony Wellington in the background playing the traditional bass line role.

That was all impressive stuff. But quite frankly it was very self-indulgent in our opinion. We left early as we simply felt we'd seen it all before.

In the morning I wrote to Anthony Wellington and told him we really enjoyed his playing. Just felt I wanted to let the guy know that while he may have played 2nd fidle it was his playing we liked best.

I got a really nice reply from him too.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Grangur

[Sibob]

An amazing player with a mastery of rhythm that many of us will only dream of attaining.
I don't particularly listen to much of his firework/music show playing, as that's just what it is, a display. He knows that and is the first to admit it, but it's part of the job of a musician....tap into what revenue streams present themselves.
Love his playing with Bela, it's also nice to hear him in a more 'standard' role like on Indie Arie's 'Summer'. And if you want his more sensitive side, check out his Bass Day '98 (I think) rendition of Arie's Eyes.
He's also an incredible educator, watch his Groove Workshop DVD, eye opening and the reason why I then went to one of his Music/Nature camps in Nashville a couple of years ago.
So again, I don't really slap much (no call for it generally), I'm not easily impressed by firework playing......but he is a bloody brilliant bass player and human!

Si

[Sibob]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1471900997' post='3116897']
Mrs G and I went to his recent London gig. It was the second time we'd been to see him.

This time we had a treat to see Janek Gwizdala on stage with him; both in a dual for the lead role, with Anthony Wellington in the background playing the traditional bass line role.

That was all impressive stuff. But quite frankly it was very self-indulgent in our opinion. We left early as we simply felt we'd seen it all before.

In the morning I wrote to Anthony Wellington and told him we really enjoyed his playing. Just felt I wanted to let the guy know that while he may have played 2nd fidle it was his playing we liked best.

I got a really nice reply from him too.
[/quote]

But I'd argue that any solo (or certainly 90% of them), are self indulgent. But also, why would that be a bad thing? Essentially you're watching a conversation between two people, what they're saying to each other needs to be fun for them and them only, that's the creative imperative!
Now if it was Anythony soloing (which he does a lot) and Victor playing the bass role, presumably it would be Victor you were emailing?

Si

[4stringslow]

There must be a million examples of technical mastery that leads to an underwhelming end result.

Photo-realistic art springs to mind. Immensely impressive on a technical level yet what's the point?
http://www.creativebloq.com/illustration/examples-photorealism-10135012

[ambient]

Both his book and the DVD that he bought out are very rewarding, and recommended.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1471903179' post='3116925']
There must be a million examples of technical mastery that leads to an underwhelming end result.
[/quote]

Like Chopin, Beethoven, Pastorius, Grepelli etc etc ad infinitum?

The fact is we all have differing musical tastes. I personally can find the 'bass virtuoso' stuff a little tiresome after a while but that's just me - I also get bored with rockabilly slap bass after about three songs. However I have tickets to see Level 42 for the fourth time in 3 and a bit decades and am thoroughly looking forward to it - as much for the overall music experience as for the bass, electrifying though that will be.

I don't think all complex or techinically difficult music can be dismissed as self indulgence. There are those around who think that bass should be felt but not heard, played on an old P bass (though God knows why as one thump is very similar to another) through an Ampeg - there are also those who think Bob Dylan and Neil Young are great - I'm afraid I disagree entirely and could find loads of well reasoned arguments to justify my view - however I think it's better to just agree to differ as who am I to dismiss other people's tastes?

Back in the late 60s me and my mid teen school mates went to loads of gigs of very famous bands of the era - I gained a little notoriety amongst them for the sacriligious act of falling asleep in a Pink Floyd concert - the epitome of cool 'underground' music at the time. This was pre Meddle and Dark Side of the Moon, I was tired, and the extended jams within songs seemed often to consist of combinations Waters, Wright and Gilmour making wierd and wacky noises by twiddling knobs on embryonic synthesisers and playing mellotrons (keyboards using taped sounds) - mellotrons notoriously went out of tune owing to heat!! Yes it was abysmal folks and I disagreed vehemently with those of my mates who thought otherwise!! When Meddle came out I became a Floyd fan again.

I just concede all people have a range of tastes - sometimes they match yours, sometimes they don't.

I like Wooton's version of Teen Town with the double thumbed slap solo by the way, slightly better than Marcus Miller's version but still prefer Jaco and Weather Report's. Im curious what it might sound like played on a Wal!!

Edited August 22, 2016 by drTStingray

[funkgod]

funny how you find things, i came to know VW playing from bela fleck, not because i was i was looking for bass but because i was into banjo, and bela for me was god, i have i think everything he has recorded, the guy really is pushing boundaries, he is to me on banjo what luc ponty is on violin.
So inspired by him and as a crap banjo player i did a few of my own in that style, ( not half as good tho )
so while im listening to early bela, vw playing was seeping through,
im not really into singers, lyrics i just think is poetry added to music, not really needed and can sometimes just get in the way, or take up the melody of a now redundant instrument that would have done it,
so bela for me was perfect, no lyrics just great playing and great underpinning by all the band.
sorry, im getting there,,, i wont be long
so vw playing on all them early recordings with bela was lock tight underpinning, with great taste, and had the skills to let go with something clever that would catch your ear when freedom was passed his way, him and bela just bounced off each other.... perfect breading for boundry breaking talent. I think his use of melody comes from bela.
i can see if you just jump into vw solo cds you mght think WTF, but take time to catch early bela and to me it all seems to make so much more sence.

if that all makes sence. JMO.

but he is a great user of melody,
anyones will do if it fits, good on him.
for eg. is that jaco's continuum you can hear at 4:37 of this ( link below) well at least he is not afraid to use it.
but again dont just skip to 4:37, listen to it in its entirety and then it makes sence, a nice ending to the solo he was just doing,( not a great solo tbf abit out in places,, but you can still hear what was on his mind)
Yea.... i like vw playing.
by the way casey Driessen's playing on this is just fantastic.as is jeff coffins sax playing, nice feel,
( but seems there is a pont where he wanted bela to go into another gear and looked at him about 6:50 to do so, and bela just looked bored, and stayed there, shame, caseys playing deserved that, common bela, lets hear them gears ! !)

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARM4TSGdoJQ"]https://www.youtube....h?v=ARM4TSGdoJQ[/url]

Edited August 25, 2016 by funkgod

[XB26354]

Ive seen him live twice and listened to plenty of tracks both solo and with Bela Fleck and I concur with the OP. There's something utterly unprepossessing about his playing, great though it may be on a technical level, and it's not that it's soloing or the like, it does absolutely nothing for me emotionally. Then again a bass player who needs a bass player to play bass behind them is always in trouble.
I fail to see how he has pushed any boundaries frankly - other than his prodigious technique, and there is a skill in making technique serve the music, which I don't think he possesses to any great degree. Still, each to their own.

[CamdenRob]

Not really my thing if I'm honest... awesome technique though.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='TrevorR' timestamp='1471898891' post='3116856']
It's funny. This post has been bubbling up in me over the last few weeks, months even.

<snip>

Can't argue with the impressiveness. Thing is, I rarely ever sit down to listen to music with the intention of being impressed.

<snip>

What do you guys think?
[/quote]

First, I am glad you vented your feelings here else it might have resulted in a rather long and nasty fart. As it is the brain fart that resulted is bound to be controversial.

Second, What you describe reminds me of the old school High Fidelity "enthusiasts" (fanatics, if you will). More fuss is made over the means of getting the sounds than over the sounds themselves. I always bought sound systems to listen to music with and I get bored when the p33ing contest starts at the meeting of two such creatures. Similarly, VW impresses me about as much as much. All of the clips of him are demonstrative of how good he is. None of them show him really enjoying himself.

Third, does the above answer the question?

I can't knock Victor. I haven't gone looking for any albums with him playing though. That's how entertained I was by what's been posted of his work. Can someone convince me otherwise because he seems like a nice lad otherwise?

[Rich]

I'm not going to try to convince you or anyone else, because it's all individual taste, and the main thing about individual taste is that it's, errm, individual.
If you like it, fine. If you don't like it, fine.

[chris_b]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1471933045' post='3116991']
Can someone convince me otherwise . . . . ?
[/quote]
Why? He's not for you so that's that.

I don't much like Jaco or Mark King. Why should anyone else care about that?

VW is a cracking bass player who plays to the situation he is in. His clinics and display gigs are full of "circus" bass because that's what is required. His other gigs range from Bela Fleck, through to Chick Corea and pretty "normal" bass lines on Keb Mo's record of a few years ago.

VW isn't a one-trick pony. Non of those guys are and, having met him, he really is a nice guy.

[Cato]

I like Vic.

I got into him through the Flecktones, but I also like some of his solo work, though generally not the more acrobatic stuff.

This is by far his best solo piece.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IgtZIK-M0_8

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1471934353' post='3116997']
His other gigs range from Bela Fleck, through to Chick Corea and pretty "normal" bass lines on Keb Mo's record of a few years ago.
[/quote]

I'll have a crack at those then. Ta.

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1471934353' post='3116997']

VW is a cracking bass player who [b]plays to the situation he is in[/b]. His clinics and display gigs are full of "circus" bass because that's what is required.
[/quote]

Yup. He has got fantastic groove!!
It's just most of the time people come to see him because of how mesmerising his technique is.
To your average musical connoisseur, what do you think will sell more product, or create more hype?

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1471934353' post='3116997']

Why? He's not for you so that's that.

[/quote]

True, but sometimes a little guidance can help you find things that you could miss/overlook on your own. I got into Dylan this way.

[XB26354]

I'm mystified why being a nice person (or otherwise) has any bearing on anyone's ability or effect musically on others? I'm reliably informed some of the greatest and composers and musicians in history were absolute b*stards

[Coilte]

As with the recent Jaco thread...some like Wooten, others don't.

No big deal.

[bassjim]

I remember a guitarist friend of mine brought round a DVD with him doing "You Aint Got No Groove" at some Bass Day event some 15-20? years ago.

I thought this was really good. Since then apart from the occasional thing where he is actually playing bass in a band I'm kinda numb to it.

Its the same thing for me if I see any band or artist regardless of genre playing virtuoso things for a long duration. However I would say this.....

Early Level 42 stuff has loads of instrumental youthful testosterone fulled fast playing with lots of riffs glued together. Today I cant listen to it but as an 18 year old lad I thought this was very moving stuff. If I was 15 and just starting out on bass, I'd probably want to be the next VW and although I'd in all probability be nothing even close, he would be the Mark King of today that got me into playing in the first place. Maturing as a musician and as a person comes later. (although sometimes looking at my own performances I'm still working on that )

So yes its all very twing twang twong slappidy ping ...but for all the players new and experienced that find it inspiring its got to be a good thing overall.

These days its players like Pino that inspire me.

[Sibob]

Absolutely, I would never say "Oh you have to like his music", because that's a ridiculous thing to say......but if you can't see past the technique and the constant focus on slap, then you're absolutely not looking hard enough. Perhaps the kind of person to say "oh there's no good rock or punk bands anymore"?! . If nothing else, look at his achievements with education, his mastery of rhythm in general etc. For me, there is absolutely no comparison with Mark King, well, other than they can both slap well.

It's also equally ridiculous to say "a bass player who needs a bass player is in trouble" (as mentioned by someone above)......they're musicians first.....they're best friends....what instrument they play is irrelevant, they want to play together. As long as they understand that they need to occupy different sonic space, who cares that they both play bass?!
Also, <select super popular guitarist> is rubbish because there's multiple guitarists in their band

Si