Buying (then selling on) for profit?

[mcnach]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1472144683' post='3118880']
Funny how no one complains if the market drops out the bottom for an item after they've sold it isn't it? Has anyone received some compensation from the seller after buying a used Warwick after they crashed years ago?
[/quote]

+1

[Shambo]

I see lots of straw men in this thread. Doesn't the OP have the right to question what sort of person they are dealing with? Why wouldn't they be allowed to bring attention to the fact they had recently sold said instrument for a lot less than the new owner is asking for it? There's no moral ambiguity I can see in asking the cause of the new higher asking price, but there might be in justifying the new price.

Speaking personally, if I noticed that a bass had [i]quickly [/i]returned to the [i]same [/i]marketplace at a [i]higher price[/i], I would be wondering what the new seller could have done to justify the higher asking price. If they'd spent money couriering it, or repairing it, or setting it up, new strings, train fares, flights, overheads, case, whatever, then I'd expect the new seller to mention it and take that into account.

It they'd just given it a polish and taken some new photographs, then I'd think carefully whether or not that person would be an acceptable trading partner for me. Even if I really wanted the bass, I suspect I would be inclined not to buy. The new seller has bought nothing to the table. Their good fortune to spot the bargain early and have the cash to snap it up is not a good enough reason to try and leverage a higher price from the next purchaser. IMO, that person is behaving parasitically and wouldn't deserve my money.

You might tell me to go live in communist Russia, compare me to a slow runner, win some lose some, deal with it, man up, back down or any other dodgy analogy to justify your greed, and perhaps you'd be right to think I was being too idealistic, but I think of it as not being a bit of a c**t. I don't want to do business like that and I'm happy to admit it. You can accept it as the way of the jungle if you like, especially if you have a vested interest, but I don't think you can seriously expect everyone not to mention that, "hang on, this a rip off". I don't recall anybody mentioning that they where expecting extra payment if they undervalued their bass, or that the forum should be 'mates rates', just that they're hoping not to jump in to a tank full of sharks.

And remember folks, if your in the market for a pre-loved instrument without aggressive sales technique and dodgy valuations, come on down to 'Honest Shambo's Used Bass Emporium', just off junction 7, next door to the moral high ground. Where our motto is, "When you're happy, I'm happy!"

Edited August 25, 2016 by Shambo

[Dan Dare]

Stingray Pete's spot on.

[discreet]

[quote name='Shambo' timestamp='1472151399' post='3118965']
...if your in the market for a pre-loved instrument without aggressive sales technique and dodgy valuations, come on down to 'Honest Shambo's Used Bass Emporium', just off junction 7, next door to the moral high ground.
[/quote]

I look forward to snapping up your cheap basses and selling them on at a profit. Hurry up.

[gareth]

[quote name='Mudpup' timestamp='1471991916' post='3117578']
the shop has to charge vat as well remember......
[/quote]they will use a margin scheme for vat. That way they only have to pay vat on the profit, that is the difference between what they buy the bass in at and what they sell it for.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Dan Dare' timestamp='1472153834' post='3118991']
Stingray Pete's spot on.
[/quote]
It had to happen one day

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Shambo' timestamp='1472151399' post='3118965']
I see lots of straw men in this thread. Doesn't the OP have the right to question what sort of person they are dealing with? Why wouldn't they be allowed to bring attention to the fact they had recently sold said instrument for a lot less than the new owner is asking for it? There's no moral ambiguity I can see in asking the cause of the new higher asking price, but there might be in justifying the new price.

Speaking personally, if I noticed that a bass had [i]quickly [/i]returned to the [i]same [/i]marketplace at a [i]higher price[/i], I would be wondering what the new seller could have done to justify the higher asking price. If they'd spent money couriering it, or repairing it, or setting it up, new strings, train fares, flights, overheads, case, whatever, then I'd expect the new seller to mention it and take that into account.

It they'd just given it a polish and taken some new photographs, then I'd think carefully whether or not that person would be an acceptable trading partner for me. Even if I really wanted the bass, I suspect I would be inclined not to buy. The new seller has bought nothing to the table. Their good fortune to spot the bargain early and have the cash to snap it up is not a good enough reason to try and leverage a higher price from the next purchaser. IMO, that person is behaving parasitically and wouldn't deserve my money.

You might tell me to go live in communist Russia, compare me to a slow runner, win some lose some, deal with it, man up, back down or any other dodgy analogy to justify your greed, and perhaps you'd be right to think I was being too idealistic, but I think of it as not being a bit of a c**t. I don't want to do business like that and I'm happy to admit it. You can accept it as the way of the jungle if you like, especially if you have a vested interest, but I don't think you can seriously expect everyone not to mention that, "hang on, this a rip off". I don't recall anybody mentioning that they where expecting extra payment if they undervalued their bass, or that the forum should be 'mates rates', just that they're hoping not to jump in to a tank full of sharks.

And remember folks, if your in the market for a pre-loved instrument without aggressive sales technique and dodgy valuations, come on down to 'Honest Shambo's Used Bass Emporium', just off junction 7, next door to the moral high ground. Where our motto is, "When you're happy, I'm happy!"
[/quote]

I totally respect your position, no one is being forced to buy or sell anything at any set prices, if you feel it's worth more ask for more, if a buyer feels that is overpriced they will either skip the advert or throw you an offer, if the price is too low and you get loads of offers over night ask yourself why. I have pm'd sellers before suggesting their price is too low, again they are free to investigate my opinion and see if they are losing out or ignor it totally.

[Musashimonkey]

I'm undecided on this. But I must say that after buying something for a bargain price I pass that low price onto the next person, especially if I'm turning the item over rather quickly. Just seems the right thing to do to me.

I don't get people that keep a bass for a few years and then want to get back what they paid for it! I feel that with each transaction I expect the item to drop a little in price generally.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Shambo' timestamp='1472151399' post='3118965']
I see lots of straw men in this thread. Doesn't the OP have the right to question what sort of person they are dealing with? Why wouldn't they be allowed to bring attention to the fact they had recently sold said instrument for a lot less than the new owner is asking for it? There's no moral ambiguity I can see in asking the cause of the new higher asking price, but there might be in justifying the new price.

Speaking personally, if I noticed that a bass had [i]quickly [/i]returned to the [i]same [/i]marketplace at a [i]higher price[/i], I would be wondering what the new seller could have done to justify the higher asking price. If they'd spent money couriering it, or repairing it, or setting it up, new strings, train fares, flights, overheads, case, whatever, then I'd expect the new seller to mention it and take that into account.
[/quote]


Justifying the new price?
Why do you think any seller needs to justify their price? They want X for their item. Full stop. You don't like it? Move along...
There are a lot of instances I don't buy something I'd like because I am not prepared to pay the price that's being asked. How that price came to be is of no relevance whatsoever.

[4stringslow]

Agreed. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to justify the price they want to sell something for, just as there is absolutely no reason for anyone to buy if they think the price is too high.

[machinehead]

Not just when selling musical equipment, but when selling anything, the question I hate the most is "What's the least you'll take for it?"

Why would a seller answer that question? If you want to buy it, make an offer. If your offer is acceptable, you've got a deal. If it's too low, the seller will tell you that, and he/she might tell you what he'd accept. And the negotiation can continue from there.

When someone asks me "What's the least you'll take for it?" I know they're not a serious buyer - just a tyre kicker.

Maybe it's just me though? Anyone else get pissed off by this question?

Frank.

[Shambo]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1472158142' post='3119046']
Justifying the new price?
Why do you think any seller needs to justify their price?[/quote]
To make a sale. To me. I did just explain my reasoning.

Believe it or not but there are people who want to do business with mutual understanding and trust. I'm not begrudging the concept of making a profit, but to me it has to be quantifiable and therefore justifiable. I don't want to feel I'm trading with someone who's looking to milk every last red cent out of me because they feel that's the way it's got to be done. IRL I don't want to associate with socially, nor do business with, anyone who sees me as an opportunity before a person. You don't like it? You can move on to the next sucker.

If I was inclined to play the market in such a mercenary way, I wouldn't be best served to expose my intentions to my target audience with such bravado. I'd keep my cards a lot closer to my chest. Seems I'm not inclined to such behavior, I'll say so. I think its a virtue... not one that will make me rich admittedly but hey ho, there's more to life than profit. I'd buy a used bass off me, but after this thread, I would be cautious of buying one off you.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Shambo

[mcnach]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1472162182' post='3119104'] Not just when selling musical equipment, but when selling anything, the question I hate the most is "What's the least you'll take for it?" Why would a seller answer that question? If you want to buy it, make an offer. If your offer is acceptable, you've got a deal. If it's too low, the seller will tell you that, and he/she might tell you what he'd accept. And the negotiation can continue from there. When someone asks me "What's the least you'll take for it?" I know they're not a serious buyer - just a tyre kicker. Maybe it's just me though? Anyone else get pissed off by this question? Frank. [/quote]

Yeah, you're not alone. If you want to haggle, that's good, I'm prepare for it, but do it properly: make me an offer and let's talk from there

Typical gumtree. At one point I put a few things on there, and I got an email for every single one either offering exactly half the amount or asking that question. They were all from the same person. I guess some people just blanket lowball and hope to get lucky at some point, to sell for profit... which is absolutely fine, I only have issues with their approach to me.

[luckydog]

Basses have feelings, you know, and
[quote name='Geek99' timestamp='1472132642' post='3118772']mates rates are for people you really know, in person,[/quote]

Yes, I think so. Spirit of co-operation on a forum like this isn't the same thing at all, might be shallow, and might well not extend to things money, IMO.

LD

[mcnach]

[quote name='Shambo' timestamp='1472169381' post='3119161'] To make a sale. To me. I did just explain my reasoning. Believe it or not but there are people who want to do business with mutual understanding and trust. I'm not begrudging the concept of making a profit, but to me it has to be quantifiable and therefore justifiable. I don't want to feel I'm trading with someone who's looking to milk every last red cent out of me because they feel that's the way it's got to be done. IRL I don't want to associate with socially, nor do business with, anyone who sees me as an opportunity before a person. You don't like it? You can move on to the next sucker. If I was inclined to play the market in such a mercenary way, I wouldn't be best served to expose my intentions to my target audience with such bravado. I'd keep my cards a lot closer to my chest. Seems I'm not inclined to such behavior, I'll say so. I think its a virtue... not one that will make me rich admittedly but hey ho, there's more to life than profit. I'd buy a used bass off me, but after this thread, I would be cautious of buying one off you. [/quote]


You seem to see it as black or white. I doubt most people who sell anything here just see pound signs when you approach them with interest in buying. I know I don't. I like chatting about gear too and sometimes I've actually shoot myself in the foot because someone asks me something about what I'm selling and I realise that it may not be what they really want, that it doesn't work the way they are hoping... so I explain it to them and give my honest opinion: I've met lots of great guys through buying and selling stuff here. Selling is not a business for me, or for most here. We're here mostly because we have a common interest... passion even: bass, music... so I doubt anybody is here 'exploiting' anyone or looking at the market as a trader would on Wall Street.

However, imagine I found an original '62 Jazz bass in my hands... If I needed to sell I'd put it for sale at 'market value', regardless of what I paid for it. Why wouldn't I?
I don't know if you saw that thread on talkbass about the guy who ended up with a 62 Jazz for $100. Amazing story. The guy ended up keeping it as far as I recall... but he got a lot of flak when he suggested he might sell as he wasn't particularly well financially. ON that instance there were other factors but let's simplify by creating this scenario:

person A has a 62 Jazz. They don't care about it or its value, they don't need it and just want it gone. They ask for $100

person B sees it and says 'here are my $100'. Again, for simplification lets's say he also tells person A 'you know your bass is worth a lot more?' and person A replies 'I know, I'm aware, but I don't need the money or the bass, the bass has bad connotations for me and I don't want to receive anything for it, in fact... just have it, free... here, take it away, don't ever bring it back'

so person A walks away with the bass.

at some indeterminate point in time (does it matter whether it's days, weeks or months or years?) he decides to let it go.
should he give it away just because he got it free?

at some point, the bass will be sold at its market value, and someone will benefit financially. Why on earth would it not be him?

whose kittens have been murdered by offering something at a price that someone else is happy to pay?

Feel free not to buy anything off me. I've never sold anything here or elsewhere thinking of the buyers as 'suckers', and I have a list of people in my feedback thread who seem to agree with that sentiment. You seem to think that selling things at their value and treating people with dignity are incompatible. I'd hate to live in your world.

I've bought a couple of instruments from friends, real friends. You know what? I did not expect a reduction just because we were friends. I expected a fair price, which is what they wanted anyway, and I would not dream of giving them less than that precisely because they're friends.

[luckydog]

[quote name='Shambo' timestamp='1472169381' post='3119161']I think its a virtue... not one that will make me rich admittedly but hey ho, there's more to life than profit.[/quote]

Well said, Shambo. Yes, it is a virtue, and not one that all peeps get..............

LD

[4stringslow]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1472201234' post='3119319']
I've bought a couple of instruments from friends, real friends. You know what? I did not expect a reduction just because we were friends. I expected a fair price, which is what they wanted anyway, and I would not dream of giving them less than that precisely because they're friends.
[/quote]

But what is a 'fair price'? There is no official price list so it's just what the seller and buyer are happy to agree between them. With two bassists buying a bass it's probably fairly easy to agree a price that both think is fair, but widen the scope of the participants and the item I question and it becomes a lot more subjective.

I recall a story about someone who had inherited an shotgun, Holland and Holland I think, the sort of thing that could cost £100k brand new. They were a photography fanatic and had long wanted a top of the range Leica camera, worth a few thousand pounds and knew the shotgun was worth a few bob but that was all. So they advertised for a swap and someone did the deal by buying a brand new Leica. Financially, the shotgun was potentially worth far more than the camera but both parties agreed the deal and both were very happy, so it could be judged that it was a fair deal. And that's the main thing isn't it? If both parties are happy with the deal then all is well.

[luckydog]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1472201234' post='3119319']I don't know if you saw that thread on talkbass about the guy who ended up with a 62 Jazz for $100. Amazing story. The guy ended up keeping it as far as I recall...........he wasn't particularly well financially. [/quote]

Exactly this ^ happened to a mate of mine, and 40 years later he still plays the same amazing guitar (it isn't a bass). A lifetime of playing excellence versus turning a (albeit hefty) swift buck............ there's more to life than profit !?

LD

[Skybone]

It depends on whether you traded it in at a shop, or sold it privately. Shops also have to take into account what they paid out, VAT, and hopefully for them a small margin of profit. Private sellers have to consider what they paid out.

Only ever made a profit on a handful of gear I've purchased through the many years I've been playing. Given the amount of gear I've gone through, the profit is an insignificant amount compared to the losses. Though the biggest loss to date was 50% on an L2000 Tribute. Best profit was on my old 4003.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Skybone

[Grangur]

[quote name='luckydog' timestamp='1472205121' post='3119386']
Exactly this ^ happened to a mate of mine, and 40 years later he still plays the same amazing guitar (it isn't a bass). A lifetime of playing excellence versus turning a (albeit hefty) swift buck............ there's more to life than profit !?

LD
[/quote]
And I'm sure, when his playing days are over, it will be sold for only$100 won't it? Besides anything else would be immoral wouldn't it?

[quote name='Skybone' timestamp='1472210971' post='3119455']
It depends on whether you traded it in at a shop, or sold it privately. Shops also have to take into account what they paid out, VAT, and hopefully for them a small margin of profit. Private sellers have to consider what they paid out.

Only ever made a profit on a handful of gear I've purchased through the many years I've been playing. Given the amount of gear I've gone through, the profit is an insignificant amount compared to the losses. Though the biggest loss to date was 50% on an L2000 Tribute. Best profit was on my old 4003.
[/quote]
I do hope you don't lose too much sleep over it; the profit of course. We're proud to make a loss aren't we?

Hey, that's a point! I must phone my stockbroker with this change in strategy I'm taking up.

[Trueno]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1472162182' post='3119104']
Not just when selling musical equipment, but when selling anything, the question I hate the most is "What's the least you'll take for it?"

Why would a seller answer that question? If you want to buy it, make an offer. If your offer is acceptable, you've got a deal. If it's too low, the seller will tell you that, and he/she might tell you what he'd accept. And the negotiation can continue from there.

When someone asks me "What's the least you'll take for it?" I know they're not a serious buyer - just a tyre kicker.

Maybe it's just me though? Anyone else get pissed off by this question?

Frank.
[/quote]

Funny that... I'm currently selling an Epiphone ES335 on Gumtree and have just been asked that question. Not sure whether to say make me an offer, original asking price only, or just ignore it. Truth is, for what I paid for it (brand new a few years ago) I could just as easily hang it in the wall and look at it. I want the space more than the money.

[MoonBassAlpha]

You could ping back "what's your highest price?"

[Trueno]

[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1472213352' post='3119495']
You could ping back "what's your highest price?"
[/quote]

Glad you said that. Think I will say: make an offer.
I suspect I may not hear from him again.

[Skybone]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1472212087' post='3119477']I do hope you don't lose too much sleep over it; the profit of course. We're proud to make a loss aren't we?[/quote]

If I lot sleep about it, Id be a dribbling wreck by now... er... hang on...

[Dood]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1472162182' post='3119104']
Not just when selling musical equipment, but when selling anything, the question I hate the most is "What's the least you'll take for it?"
[/quote]

Or being really cheeky with a low-ball offer, which there are a few basschatters who are maybe guilty of and I'm not just talking the odd £20 here. It's frustrating enough when the market is so slow that you offer up an item at a vastly reduced price to sell. You think you are passing on the good community spirit, something I've always tried to do. Do unto others and all that kinda thing... hmmm!