punch - definition?

[samhay]

Coming back to the bass after a long hiatus (from essentially pre-internet), I am trying to (re)aquatint myself with the lingo.
One thing I am slight puzzled by is 'punch'. I thought I knew what it meant, but as the days go by and I read more (bass) forum posts, I am now not so sure.
So...is there a consensus/generally agreed upon/wildly differing definition of punch?

Thanks in advance, and apologies if I missed the thread when this was discussed last month/year/Tuesday.

[Dood]

Punch is usually a boosted range of frequencies around the 100-150hz range that gives bass guitar notes mass, tonally speaking. It's not the same as everything below those frequencies which tends to be the real low end and down in to the subs, but it's a bit like the thump you get from a kick drum. Through a big PA at a gig, it's that feeling when the bass 'punches' you in the middle.

That's how I'd describe it anyway.

[discreet]

I dunno, I'd put 'heft' at around 120Hz which is where the 'power' of a bass guitar lies, but 'punch' I'd place a bit higher up in the mids somewhere. Of course I have no idea what I'm talking about, as usual.

[Dood]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1472161701' post='3119095']
I dunno, I'd put 'heft' at around 120Hz which is where the 'power' of a bass guitar lies, but 'punch' I'd place a bit higher up in the mids somewhere. Of course I have no idea what I'm talking about, as usual.
[/quote]

Oooh, I think I'd put heft in at 80hz shelving, maybe as low as 60hz.

[Dood]

Then below that you get the pillowy low end cuddle of a 40hz boost!

[ahpook]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1472161701' post='3119095']
I dunno, I'd put 'heft' at around 120Hz which is where the 'power' of a bass guitar lies, but 'punch' I'd place a bit higher up in the mids somewhere. Of course I have no idea what I'm talking about, as usual.
[/quote]

Oh, right....I AM lost then...I thought punch was the time-averaged watts per unit heft (with the usual multipliers for non-standard watts of course)

Edited August 25, 2016 by ahpook

[discreet]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1472161953' post='3119101']
Then below that you get the pillowy low end cuddle of a 40hz boost!
[/quote]

Crikey. I always thought anything around 40Hz and below was like being rogered with God's mighty gut-jumbler.

[samhay]

Good - after the first reply, which is more-or-less what I originally thought punch is/was (thanks dood), I thought there might be some consensus.

Apparently one's chest has a resonant frequency of 50-100 Hz, so perhaps this dictates the punch frequency range?


(taken from here: [url="https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/human-body-resonant-frequencies.501607/"]https://www.physicsf...uencies.501607/[/url])

[Twincam]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1472161701' post='3119095']
I dunno, I'd put 'heft' at around 120Hz which is where the 'power' of a bass guitar lies, but 'punch' I'd place a bit higher up in the mids somewhere. Of course I have no idea what I'm talking about, as usual.
[/quote]

I somewhat agree with this. Heft is lower down in frequency and takes more power and efficiency to create. Punch is higher in frequency and probably doesn't take as much power to create.
P basses are more mid range, they have punch they cut through the mix. Not to say the don't have heft also.

[discreet]

It's a thankless task trying to describe sound, or the constituents of sound, in words... particularly if one man's heft is another man's punch and quite possibly a third man's cheese omelette. With ketchup.

[Painy]

So which one is growl then?

[blue]

I don't know what an Hz is.

For me punch is a delicate balance of your high and low end, clean with just the right amount if sustain.

Back in the 70s when I was able to manage an SVT, you flipped the on switch and you had punch right out of the gate.

Now with my GK 1001rb w/ 2 10s stacked on top of a 1 15 RBX cab and a fully loaded pedal board, I struggle to dial in the punch I would like.

Blue

Edited August 25, 2016 by blue

[blue]

[quote name='Painy' timestamp='1472166812' post='3119141']
So which one is growl then?
[/quote]

I don't get or accept the whole concept of " growl". Thats for the young guys.

Poor description and choice of word if you ask me.

Blue

Edited August 25, 2016 by blue

[gjones]

[quote name='Painy' timestamp='1472166812' post='3119141']
So which one is growl then?
[/quote]

At around 2.30 on this video you get the Jazz Bass growl

http://youtu.be/NDMp3MREoK4

[drTStingray]

Punch to me is low mids - they help to make your bass heard in the mix.

I have always been of the school of thought that bass links the rythmn, harmony and melody and weaves around accordingly. Thus to me, a bass which thumps (or bass player who solely plays in that way) but does not properly express pitch only fulfils one of those three functional elements. That may be ok sometimes but I feel generally the notes and nuances need to be expressed (and heard) for the bass to perform its function.

The kick drum sound is an interesting one - I have recently noticed people on a couple of occasions mixing bass drum with a certain level of added low bass frequency. Having discussed it with other people, we were of the view the sound becomes akin to a very large diameter low tuned drum as you may expect to see/hear in a military or marching band (I.e boom rather than thump) this seems to overload that part of the mix to the detriment of the overall sound, and seems only to happen because with modern PAs you can!! It doesn't help the bass guitar to sit in the mix either.

I'm not sure I understand what heft is - it seems to be a word used to describe a perceived difference in output between class D amps and old fashioned valve amps. I'm not sure if this is intended to be an effect at 5ft from the speaker cabinet or at front of house.

I appear to be able to drown out the back line of my entire band with my current class D, retaining a focussed sound even at that volume (needless to say I don't do this!!). To my ears, that's a pretty hefty performance.

I haven't used a completely valve amp since ditching mine in the 70s for an Acoustic set up - which could keep up with guitarists and others sound without the bass sound breaking up.

Edited August 26, 2016 by drTStingray

[Billy Apple]

Punch is dynamic heft. Bit of sparkle, bit of pillow.

[chris_b]

Where does Oomph start and end, then?

[drTStingray]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1472167892' post='3119150']


At around 2.30 on this video you get the Jazz Bass growl

http://youtu.be/NDMp3MREoK4
[/quote]

Well I never!!

It seems growl means different things to different people. To me, growl is for instance the sound my Musicman 5 produces when the body of the guitar reverberates strongly (you can feel it against your body) and that translates to significant reverberation of amplified sound on longer notes. It growls like a bear in other words!!

Woody mid range with amplified fret sound on a Fender is not what I would call growl although I've heard other people refer to it as this. Nice video btw.

Edited August 26, 2016 by drTStingray

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1472169455' post='3119163']
Where does Oomph start and end, then?
[/quote]

You need to checkTubachat for that answer.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1472169455' post='3119163']
Where does Oomph start and end, then?
[/quote]

Starts when you feel your trousers flapping in the air being shifted!!

[fleabag]

I'd like to know at which Hz one gets the ' size 10 Hobnail in the family jewels ' type tone

I'm planning on taking out the first row of punters at a gig tonight

[blue]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1472169455' post='3119163']
Where does Oomph start and end, then?
[/quote]

Compression is a part of getting " punch " but you need decent compression and understand the concept of threshold.

All that stuff is as they say, is; "above my pay grade".

I have to fiddle around with stuff until I get something I like.

Thing is, I, like some of you, because of the nature of the material we perform can't use the same sound for everything.

Some songs are going to be s good match with overdrive, sustain and a little crunch and others aren't.

Some songs are better suited with a clean Jameson sound.

If your playing songs by Korn, heavy distortion might come into the picture.

And yes,there are those of you that can walk into a gig with no PA and go straight bass to amp and do just fine.

Blue

Edited August 26, 2016 by blue

[spectoremg]

You know when your eyes light up and your heart's lifted by a thread title; heft, punch, growl, utter bollox?


Edit: describing sound is like trying to describe an orgasm.

Edited August 26, 2016 by spectoremg

[Trueno]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1472169455' post='3119163']
Where does Oomph start and end, then?
[/quote]

Oomph is just below Whooomph, but just above Pfffft.
Pfffft is the point where smoke comes out of your amp.

[MoonBassAlpha]

"Talking about music is like dancing about architecture".
So we might just as well shut up and get on with playing.