How to get a sound like a Rick, without a Rick?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1472817974' post='3124494']
I love it when an expert bass player announces "and you can hear that lovely clear piano tone" before playing a few notes that couldn't sound less like a piano if you hit it with an adjustable spanner.


[/quote]

To me it sounded as though the whole video had been EQ'd to bring out the "clank" those frequencies were noticeably boosted on the voice at the beginning.

[Beedster]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1472817974' post='3124494']
I love it when an expert bass player announces "and you can hear that lovely clear piano tone" before playing a few notes that couldn't sound less like a piano if you hit it with an adjustable spanner.


[/quote]

'Piano tone' in this context doesn't mean 'sounds like a piano'. Beats me what it does mean, but I've heard it sufficiently often in relation to un-piano-like tone to know what it doesn't mean

Perhaps it does in fact mean "sounds like a Rickenbacker"?

[lowhand_mike]

yep thought the tone on that video was awful, cant really describe what it is about it i dont like apart from all of it. Yet i do like the sound geddy gets on his albums and they dont sound like that video

[PaulWarning]

tbh I've never liked the sound of the bass on the PG Damned albums, they seem to lack bollocks (or is that heft?) to my ears,

Edited September 2, 2016 by PaulWarning

[Highfox]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1472830809' post='3124627']
tbh I've never liked the sound of the bass on the Damned albums, they seem to lack bollocks (or is that heft?) to my ears
[/quote]


Can't count Love Song in that hopefully, but then again that's Algy on a P or was it Lemmy!

Edited September 2, 2016 by Highfox

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Highfox' timestamp='1472830947' post='3124629']

Can't count Love Song in that hopefully, but then again that's Algy on a P or was it Lemmy!
[/quote]Algy or the Captain on a P I think, although Algy was the official bass player I seem to remember reading somewhere that Sensible played most of the bass, I think that's why Ward left, or got the sack, take your pick, I know I once got pretty close to the intro with a P

[Skybone]

I'm not likely to have the money or the justification for a Ric anytime, but I do have a couple of Faker's, and that's enough for me.

Do they sound like a Ric? They do to me, and that's enough.

[Lightlyseared]

It's probably a combination of the woods, parts, scale, construction and pickup placement. A Guild B302 has pickups in the same positions and a set neck, but sounds very different. I can't think of any other bass that mimics the Ric formula with a more conventional (read- litigation proof) body/neck shape but I can imagine some builder turning it into a successful niche.

[paul_5]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Rics use 300kΩ pots (everyone else uses either 250kΩ or 500kΩ), so that'll contribute a subtle nuance into the mix.

FWIW I've always loved the sound and look of Rics. Tried an original 1979 one once, and haven't wanted one since; the least playable neck I ever tried.

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='lowhand_mike' timestamp='1472830130' post='3124613']
yep thought the tone on that video was awful, cant really describe what it is about it i dont like apart from all of it. Yet i do like the sound geddy gets on his albums and they dont sound like that video
[/quote]

Thats because he has used a Jazz bass since 1980

[paul_5]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1472846621' post='3124822']
Thats because he has used a Jazz bass since 1980
[/quote]

Apart from a brief dalliance with a Wal from 1985 to 1991(ish)

[Skybone]

Don't forget the Steinberger days too.

[Skybone]

Saying all that, I've been contemplating getting a cheap P bass and adding a neck pickup, not decided whether it should be another P bass split or a Jazz style pickup. Kind of like the Billy Sheehan Yamaha Attitude.

[12stringbassist]

I have a Burns Bison reissue that is everything my Ric's want to be.

[spectoremg]

I agree that there are several Rick sounds. My benchmark would be Chris Squire's (all of them) and I find there's a shedload of fundamentals in there.
I bought some gear from a BCer in Suffolk last year and he had tons of basses which of course being a BCer he wanted to show me - including a Rick. He then said 'if you wanna hear a Rick sound try this' and plugged in a Vigier. He was right too.

[gary mac]

Chris Squire made a Fender J sound just like his Ric

[Cosmo Valdemar]

[quote name='gary mac' timestamp='1472941555' post='3125541']
Chris Squire made a Fender J sound just like his Ric
[/quote]

I always though his Jazz sounded noticeably different - thicker and burpier, and less aggresive.

[spongebob]

Some very good points here.

On my '74 4001, I don't sound like Lem, Squire, or Ged....I just sound like me. I realised through many expensive errors that you can't duplicate or become someone else.....and with Rics, it sooo true as many want 'the' tone - but has been discussed, there are multiples of it!

Here's another - Michael Henderson on bass, Ricky 4001 with flats -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPrIN4QSirs

[spectoremg]

[quote name='gary mac' timestamp='1472941555' post='3125541']
Chris Squire made a Fender J sound just like his Ric
[/quote]Good point. I was thinking about Parallels today - didn't realise he'd used a J on it before being told.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='spongebob' timestamp='1473001919' post='3125912']

Here's another - Michael Henderson on bass, Ricky 4001 with flats -

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPrIN4QSirs"]https://www.youtube....h?v=JPrIN4QSirs[/url]
[/quote]

Is that definitely a Ric? I had him down as a Fender Jazz guy, but then I haven't listened to much outside his work with Miles Davis.

[spectoremg]

[quote name='Meddle' timestamp='1473012343' post='3126047']
I've talked about this (and bored the pants off of folk) before. My opinion is that the answer is fairly simple: build a bass with the pickups in the right places and you are mostly there. For example, this Peterbuilt bass is basically a '51-style P bass with two pickups in the Rickenbacker locations:




The neck pickup on a Rickenbacker is in basically the same location as that of a Gibson EB-0 - EB-3 bass. The classic Rickenbacker tone (Squire [i]et al[/i]) comes from having a reasonably low output single coil pickup in that location and another in the same position as a P bass pickup, as per the picture above. Squire, Lee and co split the output of their bass, with each pickup running through a separate signal chain. I think Lee used different amps for each pickup, whereas Squire actually mixed the two pickups back together into a mono signal chain, bolstered with Marshall amps. The important bit is that the two pickups don't 'see' each other, so don't cancel frequencies or load each other down electrically. You basically have two '51 P bass circuits running independently on opposite sides of a 3-way pickup switch (that basically runs as two kill switches and a 'both on' arrangement in the middle position). Rickenbacker also used to fit 4.7 nF capacitors in series with the bridge pickup, cutting bass frequencies. This doesn't put the pickup ninety degrees out of phase (as some would have you think) but basically scoops the frequencies from this pickup right where they would interfere and interact most with the bassy frequencies of the neck pickup. However if you are running a bass in stereo you can remove these bass frequencies from the bridge pickup anyway, so it probably isn't all that vital to have it there.

Chris Squire had a way of making all instruments sound like Chris Squire. Probably a combination of low action, rotosounds, warm-voiced valve amps on the brink of distortion and forgiving producers like Eddy Offord working with him to get a full bass tone. In the world of Yes Chris was given a lot of space so, luckily for us, you can hear a lot of his tone! I've got the multitracks to Heart of the Sunrise somewhere, and Chris's bass sounds the same solo'd as in the final mix. For a lot of isolated bass tracks I've heard you tend not to realise the full tone of the bassist until the other instruments are stripped away.

Sticking with Squire for a bit, the other contender is that we don't know what he used in the studio, really. On The Yes Album there are times that the bass is in stereo and panned across the stereo field, but on Fragile it is pretty much in mono and down the centre of the mix. Squire actually acquired a 21 fret Mapleglo 4001 bass around The Yes Album time (if not earlier), so it is hard to know what tracks he used this on. That bass had factory Ric-O-Sound fitted, so perhaps he modified his cream 1999 RM bass to have a stereo output after he purchased the 4001? Beyond the bass we also don't know what amp combinations he used in the studio, and what limiting and compression was added to the signal. From memory there is some drum bleedthrough on the bass tracks to Heart of the Sunrise, so this suggests there was a mic'd amp somewhere in the mix.

Another idea I keep coming back to is that Rickenbackers don't sound like Rickenbackers. New 4003 basses sound way darker and less charismatic, in my view, than the originals. I played an early '70s 4001 last year, and the tone was way more open and bright sounding. Admittedly it had quite a low output and, with some fingerstyle playing, I got some ugly transients coming from the bridge pickup. I find modern 4003 basses to sound like dark, rubbery Jazz basses, and the 'vintage' tone circuit (which introduces the 4.7 nF cap mentioned earlier) just muddles up the mids a bit, adding a subtle honk to the tone. Rickenbacker went through an odd period of winding hotter and hotter pickups, using weaker magnets and generally making dull sounding pickups.

I hope a manufacturer someday mass produces a bass with single coil pickups in the Rickenbacker locations. Copyists tend to try and copy the outline of the 4003 bass, and then get into legal trouble with RIC. Ironically none of the modern clutch of copies sound much like Rickenbackers, with some exceptions, due to a number of reasons (pickups used and scale length being the most obvious). Somebody could produce a P bass like the Peterbuilt above and RIC could do nothing.
[/quote]Thanks for an informative, informed and very interesting article.

[gary mac]

[quote name='Meddle' timestamp='1473013876' post='3126077']
Aye it was a bit of an article, wasn't it!
[/quote]

It was but an enjoyable one.

Also, love the Peterbuilt, what a looker

[alyctes]

[quote name='Meddle' timestamp='1473012343' post='3126047']
I've talked about this (and bored the pants off of folk) before. My opinion is that the answer is fairly simple: build a bass with the pickups in the right places and you are mostly there. For example, this Peterbuilt bass is basically a '51-style P bass with two pickups in the Rickenbacker locations:




The neck pickup on a Rickenbacker is in basically the same location as that of a Gibson EB-0 - EB-3 bass. The classic Rickenbacker tone (Squire [i]et al[/i]) comes from having a reasonably low output single coil pickup in that location and another in the same position as a P bass pickup, as per the picture above. Squire, Lee and co split the output of their bass, with each pickup running through a separate signal chain. I think Lee used different amps for each pickup, whereas Squire actually mixed the two pickups back together into a mono signal chain, bolstered with Marshall amps. The important bit is that the two pickups don't 'see' each other, so don't cancel frequencies or load each other down electrically. You basically have two '51 P bass circuits running independently on opposite sides of a 3-way pickup switch (that basically runs as two kill switches and a 'both on' arrangement in the middle position). Rickenbacker also used to fit 4.7 nF capacitors in series with the bridge pickup, cutting bass frequencies. This doesn't put the pickup ninety degrees out of phase (as some would have you think) but basically scoops the frequencies from this pickup right where they would interfere and interact most with the bassy frequencies of the neck pickup. However if you are running a bass in stereo you can remove these bass frequencies from the bridge pickup anyway, so it probably isn't all that vital to have it there.

Chris Squire had a way of making all instruments sound like Chris Squire. Probably a combination of low action, rotosounds, warm-voiced valve amps on the brink of distortion and forgiving producers like Eddy Offord working with him to get a full bass tone. In the world of Yes Chris was given a lot of space so, luckily for us, you can hear a lot of his tone! I've got the multitracks to Heart of the Sunrise somewhere, and Chris's bass sounds the same solo'd as in the final mix. For a lot of isolated bass tracks I've heard you tend not to realise the full tone of the bassist until the other instruments are stripped away.

Sticking with Squire for a bit, the other contender is that we don't know what he used in the studio, really. On The Yes Album there are times that the bass is in stereo and panned across the stereo field, but on Fragile it is pretty much in mono and down the centre of the mix. Squire actually acquired a 21 fret Mapleglo 4001 bass around The Yes Album time (if not earlier), so it is hard to know what tracks he used this on. That bass had factory Ric-O-Sound fitted, so perhaps he modified his cream 1999 RM bass to have a stereo output after he purchased the 4001? Beyond the bass we also don't know what amp combinations he used in the studio, and what limiting and compression was added to the signal. From memory there is some drum bleedthrough on the bass tracks to Heart of the Sunrise, so this suggests there was a mic'd amp somewhere in the mix.

Another idea I keep coming back to is that Rickenbackers don't sound like Rickenbackers. New 4003 basses sound way darker and less charismatic, in my view, than the originals. I played an early '70s 4001 last year, and the tone was way more open and bright sounding. Admittedly it had quite a low output and, with some fingerstyle playing, I got some ugly transients coming from the bridge pickup. I find modern 4003 basses to sound like dark, rubbery Jazz basses, and the 'vintage' tone circuit (which introduces the 4.7 nF cap mentioned earlier) just muddles up the mids a bit, adding a subtle honk to the tone. Rickenbacker went through an odd period of winding hotter and hotter pickups, using weaker magnets and generally making dull sounding pickups.

I hope a manufacturer someday mass produces a bass with single coil pickups in the Rickenbacker locations. Copyists tend to try and copy the outline of the 4003 bass, and then get into legal trouble with RIC. Ironically none of the modern clutch of copies sound much like Rickenbackers, with some exceptions, due to a number of reasons (pickups used and scale length being the most obvious). Somebody could produce a P bass like the Peterbuilt above and RIC could do nothing.
[/quote]

Thank you. I think I now know what I need to know.

[kodiakblair]

I'll just leave this here. Not that I'm biased

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjwHFHDz_Hg

[alyctes]

[quote name='kodiakblair' timestamp='1473024624' post='3126253']
I'll just leave this here. Not that I'm biased

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjwHFHDz_Hg"]https://www.youtube....h?v=PjwHFHDz_Hg[/url]
[/quote]

Now he tells me