What's the point?

[TimR]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1473006733' post='3125982']


I think you're missing one of the saddest points made by your own observations... The 'next generation' will be more interested in music like electronic music or acoustic material and probably less interested in 'bands'/traditional musicianship.

Covers bands 20 years from now will either be a guy with a laptop and a launchpad blasting out classic dub tracks or a guy with an acoustic and a looper covering Ed Sheeran.
[/quote]



That's what they were saying in the 80s.

Sorry. It's never going to happen.

.

Edited September 4, 2016 by TimR

[Lozz196]

This is all subjective, frustrating yes, but it depends on the people themselves, and the genre/scenes as well. Last night we played The 100 Club in Oxford St, 6 bands on, I would doubt any of the band members were under 30, and would say most were 40+, with some 50s as well (myself included in that part). And the place was rammed. Yes it was a mates birthday but he ran it as a promoted gig, selling tickets. There were people from all over the country, ones we`ll bump into in Bristol one week, Stoke the next, Southend the month after etc. We`re playing in Brighton next week and we`ll see many of those people there. People aren`t as apathetic about live music as it seems, the punk scene at present is thriving, plenty of great bands, plenty of people travelling all over the country to support the bands and have a great time whilst doing so.

Another thing about last night, the event was raising money for the Sophie Lancaster Foundation, and people were readily putting fivers, tenners, twenties into the collection. Additionally the bands that were getting paid last night waived their fees so that they could be donated to this cause. People do care, about many things, and it`s great that a musical event can raise some decent money for something so worthwhile.

[RhysP]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1473006733' post='3125982']
...or acoustic material and probably less interested in 'bands'/traditional musicianship.
[/quote]

Er, surely somebody with an acoustic guitar is more "traditional musicianship" than somebody playing in an electric band?

[Roger2611]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1473007009' post='3125984']


If the venue is regularly getting low audiences I'd look at the attitude of the management and then bar staff and the cleanliness of the toilets and general ambience. People have had enough of going to grotty venues with surly staff. May not be worth playing there of that's the actual problem.

Plus. How does your music fit in with an Australian beat box and a hardcore metal band. That's just the wrong combination on my mind, it's not going to attract anyone for a whole evening.
[/quote]

You are probably correct, but my frustration was not just with last night's venue, I think my biggest frustration is that we get to play empty venues with some fantastically talented younger, up and coming bands who should be pulling in audiences but end up being watched by the other bands members only, I am far to old to make it in the music business nowadays and I am not sure I would even want to, but they are not, it would be nice to play alongside bands like this and bring them a bit of a new audience.

[skej21]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1473007677' post='3125993']


Er, surely somebody with an acoustic guitar is more "traditional musicianship" than somebody playing in an electric band?
[/quote]

I meant 'traditional' as in a Classic Rock 4-piece setup that we associate with 'pub bands'...

[blue]

[quote name='Pinball' timestamp='1473006265' post='3125973']


Yep we find the same. I can't understand the people who say they are coming and then don't. That is a big change in the way people behave..

I think you just have to do it for yourselves and for your enjoyment. If you aren't enjoying it it's not worth it there days.
[/quote]

It seems like if it comes up in a conversation that your in a band they feel obligated to ask where your playing.

They'll get the time, place and date from you, knowing they have no intention of actually coming to the gig.

Blue

[4stringslow]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1473006517' post='3125978']
But if you don't network and do the business type things to compete against the other highly financed businesses you just won't get noticed above all the noise. Like it or not you're in competition. Be that financial or just for an audience.
[/quote]

That's not my experience over the past 10 years or so. We might give a gig a mention on our individual Facebook pages, but most of the time we simply apply to play at some event, like the Hertford Music Festival I mentioned in another thread, or get invited somewhere, very often places we've played previously. Sure, we're not playing to hundreds or thousands but I can only remember one gig where the other bands outnumbered the audience and 50 or 60 people in a small pub is generally enough to create a good atmosphere anyway. Again, I guess it all depends on ambition. We're quite happy with gigging once a month on average and we find that we don't have to actively 'compete' to get those gigs, so we're perfectly happy with everything.

I'm sure if we were aiming to 'make it big' or were dependent on gigging income then we'd fail dismally, but we're not. We just enjoy writing and playing songs and feel lucky to be able to do so without having to put in lots of 'collateral effort'.

The problem with discussions such as these is that a perfectly valid point for one band situation is touted as a general point for every band, which is clearly ridiculous. There are many different circumstances and therefore many different approaches. What works for one band may not work for another, but that doesn't mean either are wrong. I certainly wouldn't recommend our band's relaxed approach to anyone with serious ambition but I would suggest there is room for all.

Edited September 4, 2016 by 4stringslow

[mrtcat]

Personally I don't get to go out much on a Saturday because I'm gigging but when I do get the chance i always try to watch live music. The problem for me is that a night out is very expensive these days so if I'm going out I'm going to spend a little extra and buy tickets for either a show or a gig that I really want to see. I can't justify spending £50+ for a night out watching originals bands on the off chance i might like them. If beer was still £2 a pint and entry was free then I'd definitely take a punt on a few bands I know nothing about but it's just not like that anymore.

[RhysP]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1473008877' post='3126005']
It seems like if it comes up in a conversation that your in a band they feel obligated to ask where your playing.

They'll get the time, place and date from you, knowing they have no intention of actually coming to the gig.

Blue
[/quote]

This is very true.

The old Facebook event thing is totally useless as an indication too - it's one thing for somebody to click "Interested" or "Going" & another thing entirely for them to actually turn up.

[TimR]

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1473009208' post='3126011']


That's not my experience over the past 10 years or so. We might give a gig a mention on our individual Facebook pages, but most of the time we simply apply to play at some event, like the Hertford Music Festival I mentioned in another thread, or get invited somewhere, very often places we've played previously. Sure, we're not playing to hundreds or thousands but I can only remember one gig where the other bands outnumbered the audience and 50 or 60 people in a small pub is generally enough to create a good atmosphere anyway. Again, I guess it all depends on ambition. We're quite happy with gigging once a month on average and we find that we don't have to actively 'compete' to get those gigs, so we're perfectly happy with everything.

I'm sure if we were aiming to 'make it big' or were dependent on gigging income then we'd fail dismally, but we're not. We just enjoy writing and playing songs and feel lucky to be able to do so without having to put in lots of 'collateral effort'.

The problem with discussions such as these is that a perfectly valid point for one band situation is touted as a general point for every band, which is clearly ridiculous. There are many different circumstances and therefore many different approaches. What works for one band may not work for another, but that doesn't mean either are wrong. I certainly wouldn't recommend our band's relaxed approach to anyone with serious ambition but I would suggest there is room for all.
[/quote]

I'm not talking about 'making it big', I'm just talking about being selective with the places you chose to play and making sure that your audience feel that they're missing out on something special if they don't attend.

Hertford music festival has a reputation for good music. The promoters will be queueing up to get their bands on. Most of your work is already done and if the audience like you and you get asked back that's really good.

On the other hand, if you were playing one-off gigs to small audiences it's a different game altogether.

In the other thread we talk about being selective where you play and make sure that you make the most of every gig. In particular, if you're not being paid, make sure you get something out of it.

It's very hard to have 'fun' if no one turns up. It's difficult for an agent or promoter to have a real interest in promoting you if you don't already have a reasonable following.

My worry is if your 'fans' aren't following you arround then maybe you're not actually playing music they really like.

We have a core of 12 people who follow us to practically every gig. It's only 12 but it's an indication that at least some people enjoy what we do. (We don't even play originals and they could see any band play 40% of our set in any pub)

.

Edited September 4, 2016 by TimR

[ambient]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1473006733' post='3125982']
I think you're missing one of the saddest points made by your own observations... The 'next generation' will be more interested in music like electronic music or acoustic material and probably less interested in 'bands'/traditional musicianship.

Covers bands 20 years from now will either be a guy with a laptop and a launchpad blasting out classic dub tracks or a guy with an acoustic and a looper covering Ed Sheeran.
[/quote]

Have a walk past your local music college, you'll see that's plainly not the case.

[skej21]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1473011854' post='3126040']


Have a walk past your local music college, you'll see that's plainly not the case.
[/quote]

You live in London. It's a much more diverse and desirable destination for musicians than other areas of the country to be fair. I'm not sure it's representative of every institution, as much as I wish it was. My local college currently has 3 bass students across 4 years and as such, has a bass tutor who teaches across two local universities and three FE colleges, as there are so few players studying the instrument.

This also seemed to be the case further afield when I moved for Uni. When I was there (at a large traditional red brick uni with a large music department) not long ago, I was one of 3 bass players. Me and another in my first year and one in the third who left after my first year, cutting the number down to two. We were heavily outnumbered by music tech students who worked heavily on electronic music production and software such as MaxMSP.

I'm not trying to cause an argument, I'm just stating that there are two sides to every coin, as much as I'd like it to not be the case.

[RockfordStone]

we played the shed once, came up from cambridge.

we were the main band the only people there was the bar guy, and a couple of guys from the band we agreed to kit share with (they only stayed cos of the kit share).

typically the "promoter" was nowhere to be seen.

it's a good venue. so we just used it to practice our show in the end.

[RockfordStone]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1472996593' post='3125853']
Nowadays it's not really the job of the 'promoter' (despite the name) to promote the band to the fans.

The music business has nothing to do with music. It's all about self promotion and that's your job, not the promoter.

.
[/quote]
to an extent i agree, to another i disagree

of course a band has to promote itself, that goes without saying, and with social media it is made a lot easier almost to the point bands have become lazy with promotion.

but if you are to believe some of the comments on another thread (you know which one i mean), bands are being exploited by promoters when they agree to play for free with the promoter taking the money. if that's the case, surely it's in the promoters best interest to promote the show to get people in so they can make money off the bands they are exploiting by getting them to play for free?

[4stringslow]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1473011544' post='3126037']
Hertford music festival has a reputation for good music. The promoters will be queueing up to get their bands on. Most of your work is already done and if the audience like you and you get asked back that's really good.
[/quote]

We don't have a promoter but we've played that music festival for about the last five years. I think we got our foot in the door from playing the 'Sunday Live' gigs at Hertford Corn Exchange (a series of Sunday afternoon gigs during the autumn/winter months). Unpaid gigs with no entrance fee and an audience of about 30-40 out for an afternoon drink before Sunday dinner and an opportunity to play on a decent stage with a good PA and sound guy. 50 minute sets of mostly original songs with a few covers thrown in to keep the audience awake . We also got a support slot for Neville Staple (Specials) through the same route, just because we had a couple of ska-ish songs at the time. Actually, that was a paying gig, in theory, but because we're useless at promotion only a few people said they'd come to see us on the door so we didn't 'sell' enough tickets. Still, we didn't care and had a fun time anyway

[TimR]

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1473014180' post='3126086']

to an extent i agree, to another i disagree

of course a band has to promote itself, that goes without saying, and with social media it is made a lot easier almost to the point bands have become lazy with promotion.

but if you are to believe some of the comments on another thread (you know which one i mean), bands are being exploited by promoters when they agree to play for free with the promoter taking the money. if that's the case, surely it's in the promoters best interest to promote the show to get people in so they can make money off the bands they are exploiting by getting them to play for free?
[/quote]

It's not a mutually exclusive situation.

My guess is if a band has a big following, the promoter makes his money more easily, promotes the band more as it's a more productive use of his time. Just like its a more productive use of the bands time, effort and money to stay at home and practice, than it is to carry all their gear two hours up the motorway, set up and play in front of no people. (Of course they didn't know this when they left their houses, but judging by a few comments on this thread, had they asked here what the venue was like before travelling, they may have been in a better position to chose the right option.)

If the band has a small following, not much in the way of promotional material and isn't proactive in promoting themselves, it's a much harder job for him.

.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='Roger2611' timestamp='1473006449' post='3125977']
I thin k you are probably correct on this, we do accept that age is against us and to be fair this project was based around recording the best music we could
[/quote]

Did you see the recent BBC 4 show - Britain's Best Unsigned Band/ There was a band on there that had been playing together for years, perfecting their own brand of Prog rock. The show was the first time the had ever performed on stage, so yes, sometimes the reward for all this effort may well be your own, personal enjoyment.

[BigRedX]

IME part of the problem is Leicester's attitude to out of town bands, however, I'll type out a more comprehensive reply to the issues as I see it tomorrow when I'm sat in front of a proper computer and not on my iPad.

[Lozz196]

Re the promoter comments - when you work for a real promoter, one who cares and actually promotes, rather than books bands and then sits back and does nothing, well it really is a joy. It`s surprising that people can get away with calling themselves a promoter when they don`t promote. Not sure if firefighters, surgeons, grave-diggers etc would be afforded the same luxury..........

[mcnach]

I'm sympathetic... it is very disheartening playing to the bartender and a drunk in a corner. But whose fault is it? Well, 'fault' is too strong... what I mean is you can't blame 'people' for not coming. You have to give something people want, you have to provide something that they really want to come out and see, then they'll come. It takes time and effort. Lots of both.

There are thousands of bands playing their thing every weekend out there. They cannot all attract large audiences. You have to find your 'niche'... but I can't tell you how to do that, I only know that it takes time, perseverance, and networking... as well as having something interesting to show.

[stingrayPete1977]

People are funny with gigs, if you can sell them a ticket a few weeks before for £2 they'll travel half way around the world instead of losing that £2!

[TimR]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1473016025' post='3126114']
People are funny with gigs, if you can sell them a ticket a few weeks before for £2 they'll travel half way around the world instead of losing that £2!
[/quote]

Yes. See my argument on the other thread.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1473014905' post='3126098']
Did you see the recent BBC 4 show - Britain's Best Unsigned Band/ There was a band on there that had been playing together for years, perfecting their own brand of Prog rock. The show was the first time the had ever performed on stage, so yes, sometimes the reward for all this effort may well be your own, personal enjoyment.
[/quote]

Yeah, that's a good point.
There's a local band here that I first saw as a trio playing a semi-acoustic session in a small bar as a warm up to the main session, of which my band was the main act. Now they are playing bigger venues, I keep seeing photographs of them playing festivals with large audiences, they're very active... and I still think musically they're not that great. Their guitarist is average, the singer is often out of tune and too shouty... drummer is adequate, bass player is ok... but they have a pretty intense energy together and they're fun to watch and I get why people like them.
If they had stayed in their rehearsal studio trying to perfect each song and sound perfect... they'd still play to nobody.

[TimR]

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1473014470' post='3126093']


We don't have a promoter but we've played that music festival for about the last five years. I think we got our foot in the door from playing the 'Sunday Live' gigs at Hertford Corn Exchange (a series of Sunday afternoon gigs during the autumn/winter months). Unpaid gigs with no entrance fee and an audience of about 30-40 out for an afternoon drink before Sunday dinner and an opportunity to play on a decent stage with a good PA and sound guy. 50 minute sets of mostly original songs with a few covers thrown in to keep the audience awake . We also got a support slot for Neville Staple (Specials) through the same route, just because we had a couple of ska-ish songs at the time. Actually, that was a paying gig, in theory, but because we're useless at promotion only a few people said they'd come to see us on the door so we didn't 'sell' enough tickets. Still, we didn't care and had a fun time anyway
[/quote]

I suspect you have a leader who is actually a pretty good salesman. You just don't realise it.

You don't just walk into a venue with your gear and start playing. Somewhere along the line someone has had to persuade someone to let you play.

How many venues that have been completely empty have you said afterwards "We should play there more often, it was great fun"? and how many venues would you play if you knew there would be no audience? I suggest the person who books your gigs does actually do some homework, you just may not be party to it.

Our band leader works very hard behind the scenes booking gigs. I've done it myself, it doesn't just happen and really most of the band don't need to know or understand that side of things.

.

Edited September 4, 2016 by TimR

[arthurhenry]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1473007009' post='3125984']
you arrived a few hours early and had hung girls out in the area wearing T-shirts and giving out flyers for the gig.
[/quote]

??? Girls wearing T-shirts? Hanging? That would certainly create a spectacle.