What's the point?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1473009610' post='3126016']
Personally I don't get to go out much on a Saturday because I'm gigging but when I do get the chance i always try to watch live music. The problem for me is that a night out is very expensive these days so if I'm going out I'm going to spend a little extra and buy tickets for either a show or a gig that I really want to see. I can't justify spending £50+ for a night out watching originals bands on the off chance i might like them. If beer was still £2 a pint and entry was free then I'd definitely take a punt on a few bands I know nothing about but it's just not like that anymore.
[/quote]

There is absolutely no reason these days to go to a gig and know nothing about the bands playing. A quick search on the web before hand should bring up their YouTube or Bandcamp page so you can check out what they are like. And there's still no need to be paying out £50 for a night out seeing live music. Having very little money spend has never deterred me so long as I can afford the get in to the venue. Sure a beer or two might make the evening a bit more enjoyable in between the sets, but I'm there primarily to see the bands play, and TBH I'd far rather spend my cash on a CD or record at the end of the night, then some alcohol I'm going to pissing out later.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='ians' timestamp='1473017200' post='3126131']
I think we live in a new era.. where live entertainment is going to die and be non existent in 10-20 yrs time. I thank my lucky stars that my best gigging days were in the late 70's early 80's where I was out five nights a week doing originals, covers, holiday camps etc....feeling rather sad about it all really.
[/quote]

Complete bollocks IME.

The live scene for me has never been healthier. I've been gigging since 1980, and my current band has, in the last 6 years, played more gigs to more enthusiastic audiences than I did with all my bands combined in the 30 years before that!

The live performance is the way forward, because it's the one that can't be given away for from as a download (a crappy YouTube video is absolutely no substitute for actually being in the audience, although it might serve as a teaser for what to expect). Of course you do have to be entertaining if you want people to come to your gigs.

Edited September 5, 2016 by BigRedX

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1473017817' post='3126142']
Originals is a tricky one to sell. I'm currently in an originals band, we're all in our 40's.

The demographic of our part of the UK is very conservative towards anything and those who do go out generally prefer a covers band if music is at a venue.

We sort of know that gigging is going to be sporadic and you have to be a little selective. There's no point in us approaching certain places, it'd be wasting our time and the venues.

That's just the way it is. The band I'm with have struggled to get a momentum mainly because they keep loosing their bass player They'd probably be gigging more and have a better following if it weren't for that. Bloody bass players eh, grumpy lot.
[/quote]

Then go and play the places where they are receptive to bands playing your genre of music.

We're lucky in that we have a great enthusiastic following in our home town, but that's hardly a big enough audience to sell a proper production run of CDs/Records/T-shirts to or to normally be able to play more often then every other month, so you have to look further afield.

Alternatively, do what we did and put on your own gigs with a reasonably well-known band of the same genre headlining and your band supporting. We grew our local audience massively doing this for a couple of years and it also gave us an impressive list of bands we could say we had supported when it came to getting decent paying gigs out of town.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1473070233' post='3126493']
I'm afraid the majority of newly written music is not very good, as a bit of a songwriter myself, I know, we all think it's good, but it probably isn't, I don't know what the 'x factor is' nobody does otherwise we'd all be writing good songs, as an open mic friend of mine put it as we were watching the performance of a particularly tedious song, "most singer songwriters aren't" doesn't make much sense but I knew exactly what he meant
[/quote]

I don't think that songwriting is the problem. There's at least a couple of decent songs in every originals band. And remember that very few "signed" bands are much better. How many albums (that aren't greatest hits/best of) do you own where every song is a classic, and how many times have you bought an album on the strength of a great single only to find that is the only good track on there?

The problem most bands have is that they simply don't have the ability to perform those songs in a way that is entertaining to an audience. The number of times I've seen bands struggle to project beyond the edge of the stage or simply play as though they are still in the rehearsal room and the audience might as well not even exist.

And with the "product" now being the live performance it should be easier than ever to be able to hone your act so that it entertaining on stage. After all you just need to use your rehearsal room time properly. That's relatively cheap compared with what you used to need in order to make a recording that could compete with what was in the charts.

[mcnach]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1473083990' post='3126715']
Alternatively, do what we did and put on your own gigs with a reasonably well-known band of the same genre headlining and your band supporting.
[/quote]

This.

[TimR]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1473084676' post='3126727']


I don't think that songwriting is the problem. There's at least a couple of decent songs in every originals band. And remember that very few "signed" bands are much better. How many albums (that aren't greatest hits/best of) do you own where every song is a classic, and how many times have you bought an album on the strength of a great single only to find that is the only good track on there?

The problem most bands have is that they simply don't have the ability to perform those songs in a way that is entertaining to an audience. The number of times I've seen bands struggle to project beyond the edge of the stage or simply play as though they are still in the rehearsal room and the audience might as well not even exist.

And with the "product" now being the live performance it should be easier than ever to be able to hone your act so that it entertaining on stage. After all you just need to use your rehearsal room time properly. That's relatively cheap compared with what you used to need in order to make a recording that could compete with what was in the charts.
[/quote]

Yes. People come to see a band to be part of the atmosphere and part of the action.

Why should they come if you're not making them part of what you do?

Talk to them at breaks, be friendly, make eye contact and smile during the show. Basically perform and draw them in.

.

Edited September 5, 2016 by TimR

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1473084676' post='3126727']
I don't think that songwriting is the problem. There's at least a couple of decent songs in every originals band. And remember that very few "signed" bands are much better. How many albums (that aren't greatest hits/best of) do you own where every song is a classic, and how many times have you bought an album on the strength of a great single only to find that is the only good track on there?

The problem most bands have is that they simply don't have the ability to perform those songs in a way that is entertaining to an audience. The number of times I've seen bands struggle to project beyond the edge of the stage or simply play as though they are still in the rehearsal room and the audience might as well not even exist.

And with the "product" now being the live performance it should be easier than ever to be able to hone your act so that it entertaining on stage. After all you just need to use your rehearsal room time properly. That's relatively cheap compared with what you used to need in order to make a recording that could compete with what was in the charts.
[/quote]no, it's not just the songs, or the performance, and I agree with you about putting on an entertaining show, (although it didn't seem to do Oasis any harm) it's exposure as well, right place right time and all that, and the right age, although I know you don't agree with me on that one, you say you've been gigging all over the place for 6 years, putting loads of hard work in, and fair play to you, but do you really think you are going to progress any further? I know other originals bands who travel all over the country playing gigs and they've got their hard core support but then it's like hitting a brick wall, they never seem to get any further, you need media interest, and I'm not sure what that is anymore apart from TV (Jools Holland?). I've said it before, apart from Sea Sick Steve how many unknown bands 'make it' past 30?
But if you're enjoying yourself, great, that's all that counts at the end of the day

edit, it depends on what your interpretation of making it is, I suppose mine would be earning enough money from the band to live on without having another job

Edited September 5, 2016 by PaulWarning

[cheddatom]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1473087219' post='3126754']
... you've been gigging all over the place for 6 years, putting loads of hard work in, and fair play to you, but do you really think you are going to progress any further?..
[/quote]

Maybe not but it's a lot better than playing to an empty room at the shed in Leicester. I think the OP's point was "We played to an empty room, why should we bother playing at all?" and the obvious counter to that is to play to full rooms (as opposed to get a top 10 hit)

[PaulWarning]

actually I've just thought of a band that's doing very well without a record deal and some older looking members, Ferocious Dogs, the first unsigned band to sell out Rock City, wonder how they did it? nothing too original, bit like the Levellors

[luckydog]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1473084676' post='3126727']
I don't think that songwriting is the problem. There's at least a couple of decent songs in every originals band. And remember that very few "signed" bands are much better. How many albums (that aren't greatest hits/best of) do you own where every song is a classic, and how many times have you bought an album on the strength of a great single only to find that is the only good track on there?

The problem most bands have is that they simply don't have the ability to perform those songs in a way that is entertaining to an audience. The number of times I've seen bands struggle to project beyond the edge of the stage or simply play as though they are still in the rehearsal room and the audience might as well not even exist.

And with the "product" now being the live performance it should be easier than ever to be able to hone your act so that it entertaining on stage. After all you just need to use your rehearsal room time properly. That's relatively cheap compared with what you used to need in order to make a recording that could compete with what was in the charts.
[/quote]

^what he says +1

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1473081947' post='3126673']Interesting points LD and I entirely agree that most musicians can judge quality of music over popularity, but this thread is about playing to near-empty venues, which suggests that popularity is the key for band success. Even if they play high quality but 'obscure' music, they still need to be 'popular' enough to fill the venue being played and the more obscure the material probably the wider catchment area they will need to draw their audience from, making it more difficult than playing classic covers. [/quote]

The crux is whether the aim is primarily to be popular or to present quality musical material/act that is true to the band. If you get the latter right, popularity should follow within the genre/demographic of peeps who enjoy it. All things being equal. I think 'both' is a fudge answer, and implies compromise that is usually nett bad. Some music always will have limited popularity in the scheme of things, yet is still fantastic. What's a man to do ? Be true to oneself, whatever that is I think.

LD

Edited September 5, 2016 by luckydog

[RhysP]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1473086243' post='3126742']
Yes. People come to see a band to be part of the atmosphere and part of the action.

Why should they come if you're not making them part of what you do?

Talk to them at breaks, be friendly, make eye contact and smile during the show. Basically perform and draw them in.

.
[/quote]

This very much depends on the genre.
I wouldn't expect to go & see a death metal band, or somebody like Steven Wilson, & have them smiling & throwing cheeky winks at the crowd, or telling crap one-liners in between songs.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1473090580' post='3126807']
actually I've just thought of a band that's doing very well without a record deal and some older looking members, Ferocious Dogs, the first unsigned band to sell out Rock City, wonder how they did it? nothing too original, bit like the Levellors
[/quote]

Indeed! We played the after show party at that gig and do a lot on that scene, it's really thriving! FD have put the work in to build up a fiercely loyal fan base, which takes time and a lot of hard work. I wonder how many would turn up if they played The Shed? Probably a few!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1473097878' post='3126922']
This very much depends on the genre.
I wouldn't expect to go & see a death metal band, or somebody like Steven Wilson, & have them smiling & throwing cheeky winks at the crowd, or telling crap one-liners in between songs.
[/quote]

And IME what the band does in between songs is as important as what they do when they are playing.

There's a place for witty banter. Although you do need to be good at it and lets be honest most people aren't, and you do need to communicate in a way that the majority of your audience can understand - it doesn't matter how eloquent your in-between song repartee is if it's delivered in the style of Elvis through a 70s train station tannoy system!

There's also a case for shutting up and playing the songs while you are on stage. At nearly all the gigs of the type in the OP there is plenty of time for the band to interact with the audience after they have finished playing, selling march, adding names to the mailing list etc. In many ways this is a far more effective way of communicating with your potential fans.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1473081399' post='3126669']
Thanks for elaborating on that one. I'd been hoping to drag Cherry White back up to the East Mids in the near future, but based on your experience I might give Leicester a miss and focus our efforts more on Derby and Notts. Useful to be able to find these things out in advance!
[/quote]

Originally I thought that it might just be that Leicester didn't "get" The Terrortones, but from other threads I've seen on here, it's not just us that gets a hard time there. As I said, we'd give it another go again if it was the right gig with the right other bands on the bill, but otherwise no.

[Twincam]

I do believe there will be a revival of traditional guitar bands. When people become board of sitting in or listening to someone play a computer. The old thing will again become the new thing.

[4stringslow]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1473084676' post='3126727']
I don't think that songwriting is the problem. There's at least a couple of decent songs in every originals band. And remember that very few "signed" bands are much better. How many albums (that aren't greatest hits/best of) do you own where every song is a classic, and how many times have you bought an album on the strength of a great single only to find that is the only good track on there?

The problem most bands have is that they simply don't have the ability to perform those songs in a way that is entertaining to an audience. The number of times I've seen bands struggle to project beyond the edge of the stage or simply play as though they are still in the rehearsal room and the audience might as well not even exist.

And with the "product" now being the live performance it should be easier than ever to be able to hone your act so that it entertaining on stage. After all you just need to use your rehearsal room time properly. That's relatively cheap compared with what you used to need in order to make a recording that could compete with what was in the charts.
[/quote]

Good points, especially live performance and putting on a show.

I played at a family wedding recently, not with my band but with other family members. It was under some duress because I thought it would be embarrassingly under-rehearsed and none of the other family members regularly played in a band except for the drummer who had only recently joined one. In the end I couldn't really refuse because I was the 'best qualified' to play and it would have seemed churlish to refuse, but I wasn't happy and insisted on more rehearsal than they wanted to bother with. We decided on some cheesy covers (Smoke on the water, 20th century boy, suspicious minds, delilah & Jumping Jack Flash) and some interesting arrangements given we only had drums, bass and keys plus the singer. Come the day, I was ready for some gentle ridicule but thought we could at least shrug it off as being a bit of a laugh.

However, in worrying about our fairly 'loose' musical performance, I completely under-estimated the lead singer. He had a decent voice but the killer was that he was a total extrovert and showman. He dressed for the part, wore an outrageous wig, unashamedly played to the crowd and basically had them in the palm of his hand. By the time we played Delilah we had 150 people singing along at the top of their voices and having a great time. It certainly made me realise the impact a good front man can have - I guess it's the difference between a concert and a show and, if I'm brutally honest, my band could do with working on its show!

[KevB]

Currently on holiday in Crete, every live act ive seen has been a solo artist with a backing track so not just uk struggling to fund full bands. The bar was raking it in too, €5 for an ouzo & lemonade ffs...

[zbd1960]

[quote name='luckydog' timestamp='1473078102' post='3126614']
Charge of the Light Brigade, General Gordon, Scott of the Antarctic ....... we take a hell of a pounding so well. We get knocked down, but we get up again. They're never going to keep us down. Now there was an originals band with something unique, that had a great following, and never sought fame and wealth AFAIK, until it happened one day.



Two things that are tough to define in philosophy : quality and truth. Robert Pirsig had had a good go at defining some kind of structure for 'what is quality?' whereas many others gave up over hundreds of years. Pirsig assigned a hierarchy (I hope he's not reading !), in which social quality, such as fame and popularity, is trumped by 'self-fulfilment' or intellectual quality such as appreciation of harmonic progression or lyrical meaning or art - but not all people operate within the 'self actualised' domain for much of the time. Hence, for most people, quality and popularity/fame are always effectively the same thing. But there is a higher plane, most musicians know of course. So depends whether we get this, personally, as to whether we think Mustang Sally beats Mahler's 6th for musical quality........the answer would be obvious (but different) and deeply split for the population.

You did ask !

I'm a Mahler 6th dude. Others would say Mustang Sally.

LD
[/quote]Barbirolli recording?

[zbd1960]

Last night, I walked along the local high street (and yes, it is called 'High Street' - small market town). One bar had a DJ on to a private party and they seemed to be enjoying themselves, one bar had a dire band on with the singer probably in a different key from the band, one wine bar had a female vocalist accompanying herself on electro-acoustic guitar and either atonal/non-tonal music has suddenly become popular, or she was excruciatingly out-of-tune....

[luckydog]

[quote name='zbd1960' timestamp='1473106099' post='3127030'] Barbirolli recording? [/quote]

Every respect. But the Solti does it for me......!

LD

[TimR]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1473097878' post='3126922']


This very much depends on the genre.
I wouldn't expect to go & see a death metal band, or somebody like Steven Wilson, & have them smiling & throwing cheeky winks at the crowd, or telling crap one-liners in between songs.
[/quote]

Indeed. I'm still not convinced a death metal band who stare at their shoes all night would be a particularly enteraining act. Presumably they interact with the crowd in some way.

[blue]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1473059824' post='3126381']


Pubs... The better ones also have a regular audience but will only give you the one chance... So your first has to work. There are too many other bands that will take the chance so you need to be well worth getting back. If the pub provides 30 plus, the band is expected to do like wise.
Venues.... You won't get booked unless you are known to be able to sell tickets.
It is pretty competitive out there... Or is around here. Imo.
[/quote]

All this selling tickets stuff, that's part of the originals band scene, right?

Blue

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1473113016' post='3127128']
All this selling tickets stuff, that's part of the originals band scene, right?

Blue
[/quote]not entirely, some of the better tribute acts can charge admission, the Bootleg Beatles is about £40, an outfit called Fred Zepplin costs about £10 at my local music pub that is usually free, but I can't think of any covers bands that charge, might be wrong though

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1473113016' post='3127128']
All this selling tickets stuff, that's part of the originals band scene, right?

Blue
[/quote]

[i]Selling tickets. [/i]

Depends if we're talking about the band having to pay the booker face value for a slab of tickets which they then desperately try to re-sell to their unsurprisingly reluctant friends and family (a time-honoured ruse that covers the promoter's risk).

Sometimes 'sell tickets' just another slang way of saying the band is sufficiently established as to be able to 'pull in a crowd', 'get punters through the door', 'put bums on seats', that sort of thing.

Edited September 6, 2016 by skankdelvar

[BigRedX]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1473087219' post='3126754']
no, it's not just the songs, or the performance, and I agree with you about putting on an entertaining show, (although it didn't seem to do Oasis any harm) it's exposure as well, right place right time and all that, and the right age, although I know you don't agree with me on that one, you say you've been gigging all over the place for 6 years, putting loads of hard work in, and fair play to you, but do you really think you are going to progress any further? I know other originals bands who travel all over the country playing gigs and they've got their hard core support but then it's like hitting a brick wall, they never seem to get any further, you need media interest, and I'm not sure what that is anymore apart from TV (Jools Holland?). I've said it before, apart from Sea Sick Steve how many unknown bands 'make it' past 30?
But if you're enjoying yourself, great, that's all that counts at the end of the day

edit, it depends on what your interpretation of making it is, I suppose mine would be earning enough money from the band to live on without having another job
[/quote]

And I'd agree with your definition of making it, and about enjoying yourself.

For the rest of it, TBH I don't really know. Right now I'm happy with the situation where the band pretty much pays for itself.

The way I see it, is that the easier it becomes to do things for yourself the more you price yourself out of a "record deal" should such a thing even exist anymore. It might be possible if you were a solo artist who didn't need a band in order to perform live, but as soon as you add up the band members the cost start to spiral. IME in order to be able to take the band beyond the level we are currently at we would need funding to allow us to spend more time being a band and not have to rely (so much) on our day jobs in order to live. Plus a massive amount of promotion and publicity to grow our audience beyond those that are interested in the punk/psychobilly scene and therefore already know all about us.

In the end it comes down to "luck"/persistence (I believe you make your own luck by being persistent and visible as a band).