What's the point?

[cheddatom]

I've played the Shed 3 times and it's always been dead. The last time I was there they were charging £3.50 for a can of red stripe. There's an off licence round the corner and they happened to have red stripe 4 for £3.50. How can they justify this?

Yeh it's a nice room and stage etc. but you're more likely to get a decent atmosphere in a venue with decent prices and a regular crowd

[lefrash]

The key for me is the picking the gigs. I see alot of bands with busy gig calendars that in the face of it looks quite impressive, but then you realise most of the gigs are within a 20 miles radius! Your 'hometown ' gig should be an event, not every 2nd week. Get a bit of a buzz about it.

Also, making sure you are on a bill with decent bands with a bit of variety is another big thing. There's nothing worse going to a big to see 5 bands squeezed into an evening who all rattle out power chords full bung all night.

But at the end of the day....there's a lot of sh*te bands making mediocre music... if the majority of your gigs are empty or your still just punting tickets to your pals to fill the venues then I think it's time to pack it in. There are lots of unsigned bands out there who are able to sell tickets/fill venues, it's too easy to say the music scene is dying. Hard truth is, maybe your band isn't as good as you think*


*that isn't aimed at anyone particular by the way.

Edited September 5, 2016 by lefrash

[Barking Spiders]

There's the double whammy of a shrinking nightlife scene across the UK and more guitar bands you can shake a stick at, all competing for a dwindling number of venues. Nightclubs are also closing down left, right and centre as well as pubs. From a punter's perspective when I check out to see who's playing what and where it's mostly 'yet another' pub blues rock combo or indie rock band. If I was told there's some incredible band with an amazing stage act like you've never seen my interest would be aroused. At the thought of watching 4 blokes in jeans and t-shirts pumping out 'Mustang Sally', 'Sex On Fire' etc I'd rather stay in and watch re-runs of Miss Marple on the Drama Channel.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Barking Spiders

[luckydog]

[quote name='lefrash' timestamp='1473064518' post='3126429']The key for me is the picking the gigs. I see alot of bands with busy gig calendars that in the face of it looks quite impressive, but then you realise most of the gigs are within a 20 miles radius! Your 'hometown ' gig should be an event, not every 2nd week. Get a bit of a buzz about it.[/quote]

^what he says

LD

[chris_b]

If an audience doesn't turn up you have to ask why. Maybe it's a crap venue. Maybe it's the economy. Maybe it's the competition. Maybe the band isn't very good. The truth can hurt but you have to know why before you can do anything about it.

What ever the reason only the band can make it change.

Original music might be very worthy but is it interesting to an audience? You can't slag off more popular music. There's nothing special about new or original music. It takes it's chance and as the gigging world is a meritocracy you can't complain if you're not wanted. Playing to empty rooms usually means the audience isn't bothered about what you're offering and if even you're mates don't turn up you've got to start recognising that change is needed.

Edited September 5, 2016 by chris_b

[TimR]

I like 4string's approach. A lot more relaxed, play local gigs. If the music is good people will come.

Ultimately it's about letting people know you are playing and when and having a massive network of friends in all your other areas of life.

If all you do is band and the only people you socialise with are the band or close mates of the band, you're restricting the size of your network.

I'm a member of a local running club with 200+ members. Last local gig I had 20 of them down, they're spreading the word amongst themselves and more are now interested in coming down. Next time they'll bring more friends. (Caveat - they all race on Sunday mornings so if our Saturday night gig is before a big meet, they all leave halfway through the second set. At least I know that's legitamte. )

Unfortunately I work in London and there is zero chance of anyone travelling out to see us from there (we play covers, I don't wear jeans though, I'm not f....g Jeremy Clarkson!)

[luckydog]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1473065467' post='3126445']You can't slag off more popular music. [/quote]
Oh, I think we can. Now where shall we start ?

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1473065467' post='3126445']There's nothing special about new or original music. [/quote]

There is: by definition it is fresh and unique. So it has to jump significant extra hurdles of familiarity and reputation. Agree it needs to be particularly worthy of interest to get a following. But one has to run it up the flagpole to see who salutes it !

LD

[TimR]

[quote name='luckydog' timestamp='1473068179' post='3126474']

Oh, I think we can. Now where shall we start ?



There is: by definition it is fresh and unique. So it has to jump significant extra hurdles of familiarity and reputation. Agree it needs to be particularly worthy of interest to get a following. But one has to run it up the flagpole to see who salutes it !

LD
[/quote]

Maybe that's the problem?

I see lots of bands trying too hard to be fresh an unique. I also see lots of bands just copying their heroes. You have to find the middle ground.

An originals band that sets out to attract members with the advert "<insert genre here> <insert influences here> looking for <insert very specific type of musicain here>" is to be avoided really.

Generally people are attracted to something familiar. Try to depart too far from that at you've got a lot of work to do. Music tends to evolve rather than suddenly make massive jumps and departures from the norm. Even electronic music and punk were based heavily on what has been before.

Take a diverse group of musicians and put them in the melting pot.

.

Edited September 5, 2016 by TimR

[chris_b]

[quote name='luckydog' timestamp='1473068179' post='3126474']
Oh, I think we can.
[/quote]
Really?

Mustang Sally and Sex On Fire are original songs by writers who cared about what they did and wanted success by reaching the largest audience possible with their songs. They are exactly like every other pub band who write their own songs. . . . except their songs are successful. Isn't that what every song writer wants? Who has a hero in their field of interest who is a failure?

As I said, if you are playing to empty rooms then you are the only one who can fix this. Change where you are playing or change what you write. Remaining the same should not be an option.

Unfortunately much of the new music on the British club and pub scene is not "fresh and unique". Too much is dull and derivative. The good guys [i]are[/i] playing to full rooms.

[PaulWarning]

I'm afraid the majority of newly written music is not very good, as a bit of a songwriter myself, I know, we all think it's good, but it probably isn't, I don't know what the 'x factor is' nobody does otherwise we'd all be writing good songs, as an open mic friend of mine put it as we were watching the performance of a particularly tedious song, "most singer songwriters aren't" doesn't make much sense but I knew exactly what he meant

[oldbass]

Agree with the above post re current song writing. and to add.

0 or little understanding of key changes to add movement and dynamcis to a tune.

Same old sounding chord progressions

Melody lines that eerm arent at all melodic but which just seem to wander around the stave without any sense of originality or musical interest.

Probably need a tin helmet now..but Ill argue those three points till the cows come home and cite in my defence any number of tunes from the 60's through to the early 90's which when listened to now seem unbeleivably interesting and listenable.

[luckydog]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1473069546' post='3126490'] Mustang Sally and Sex On Fire are original songs by writers who cared about what they did and wanted success by reaching the largest audience possible with their songs. [/quote]

One shouldn't confuse popularity with quality, as a measure of success in such things. Is Mustang Sally really worthy of notable merit as a song ? The pinnacle of aspiration ? I think not.


[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1473069546' post='3126490']Unfortunately much of the new music on the British club and pub scene is not "fresh and unique". Too much is dull and derivative. The good guys [i]are[/i] playing to full rooms.[/quote] That much is true. But the pub/club scene is generally not the originals scene, apart from some crossover which is always good to see. And the originals scene has enough fresh stuff to be interesting, always is derivative though except for the occasional iconoclast.


LD

Edited September 5, 2016 by luckydog

[4stringslow]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1473069546' post='3126490']

Really?

Mustang Sally and Sex On Fire are original songs by writers who cared about what they did and wanted success by reaching the largest audience possible with their songs. They are exactly like every other pub band who write their own songs. . . . except their songs are successful. Isn't that what every song writer wants? [b]Who has a hero in their field of interest who is a failure?[/b]
[/quote]

Ah, but isn't heroic failure the Great British way

Eddie the Eagle
Sir Clive Sinclair
Tim Henman
England football team
Beagle 2
Concorde
Advanced Passenger Train
.
.
.

[4stringslow]

[quote name='luckydog' timestamp='1473074710' post='3126549']
One shouldn't confuse popularity with quality, as a measure of success in such things. Is Mustang Sally really worthy of notable merit as a song ? The pinnacle of aspiration ? I think not.
[/quote]

That's an interesting point, but what would be an alternative measure of quality?

In a band context, isn't the most important thing entertainment, in which case popularity would seem to be a good metric? I've no doubt we could have a very worthy academic discussion about the 'quality' of a piece of music but if a three chord ditty is enjoyed by more people then what's the point?

Edited September 5, 2016 by 4stringslow

[TimR]

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1473075597' post='3126572']


That's an interesting point, but what would be an alternative measure of quality?

In a band context, isn't the most important thing entertainment, in which case popularity would seem to be a good metric? I've no doubt we could have a very worthy academic discussion about the 'quality' of a piece of music but if a three chord ditty is enjoyed by more people then what's the point?
[/quote]

The point of Pop music is it is Popuar. That's by definition.

People can't complain on one hand that they're playing arty music and popularity doesn't matter. Then complain that no one comes and listens.

I appreciate that it may be different people. But surely you want to make music that people want to listen to. Seems a bit odd to me.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Roger2611' timestamp='1472979051' post='3125659']
[color=#1D2129][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]So, we played the Shed in Leicester last night, great little venue, great PA some fantastic artists and absolutely no crowd again....you have to wonder whether it is worthwhile, clearly bands / artistes playing new music are less attractive than a Saturday night in front of the television watching the next up and coming manufactured buy / girl band / whiny solo artiste with an acoustic guitar on Britain's got X Factor?[/font][/color]
[color=#1D2129][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]We have spent hundreds of hours writing, rehearsing to be[/font][/color][color=#1D2129][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]come the band we are, we get radio play and great reviews from the few that bother to come and see us.
It seems a waste of time inviting people to come to these things as invariably they don't turn up.
So, it was a waste of time for the venue, the promoter, the sound man and the bands, I assume at some point these venues will close, the promoters will stop, the bands won't have anywhere to play and people will be on here bemoaning the fact that there is no new music anymore.....rant over[/font][/color]
[/quote]

As I said in my very brief previous post I think a lot of the "blame" unfortunately lies with the attitude of Leicester audiences towards out of town bands.

The Terrortones play gigs up and down the country to decent-sized appreciative audiences, but every time we land a gig in Leicester the turnout has been consistently poor. Even when we've had a gig with a Leicester band with a following, they've been there just to see the "local heroes" and then the majority of them are off somewhere else while while we've been on stage. I think the only way we'll be back in Leicester is if we are on immediately before a nationally known band with a sizeable following, otherwise Leicester is simply not worth our while when there a plenty of other places we can go and play where there will be an audience who want to see us play.

So sorry Leicester, but on the strength of my experiences you are a sh*t audience for lesser-known bands.


Having said that there is a lot more to being in a reasonably successful gigging band than being able to play your instrument and turning up to the venue to do the gig.

To the OP; I'm not saying that your band doesn't put in the work to put on a decent performance and do the necessary work to promote your gigs but...

You are a reasonably prolific poster here on Basschat, and while your signature has plenty of information about the instruments and equipment you own and a link to your Feedback thread, there's nothing about your band. Not even a link to your Facebook page (you do have a Facebook page don't you?) I couldn't find anything you'd posted in the last few months in the Gigs sub-forum on here either. Promoting your band means using every avenue available to you and IMO Basschat is one of those avenues. OK a lot of us might be out playing gigs of our own on a Saturday night, but I know from my own experiences that those who aren't, are quite keen to see fellow forum-members bands if we know that they are playing in our locality.

So when you don't use a source of free advertising to an audience who are pre-deposed to enjoy live music, who knows what other failings you promotional activities may have?

My experience is that as a band you have to put in a lot of time and effort to persuade people to come and see you at first, but if your band is entertaining, that hard work will eventually pay off. If your band is getting radio play (where?) then you are obviously doing something right, but how about letting us know about it too? It's all very well coming on here and having a moan about poor audiences, but when AFAICS that's the only source of information I have about your band, it makes me wonder...

Also stop blaming X-Factor etc. for your lack of audience. Unless you are a boy/girl band or a solo artist playing bedwetting acoustic music those people aren't you audience and are unlikely to ever be your audience. However there still is a good sized audience for interesting and entertaining live music and you just need too do the work to find them.

[cheddatom]

Nailed it again BRX. It can be done!

[luckydog]

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1473075219' post='3126561'] Ah, but isn't heroic failure the Great British way [/quote]

Charge of the Light Brigade, General Gordon, Scott of the Antarctic ....... we take a hell of a pounding so well. We get knocked down, but we get up again. They're never going to keep us down. Now there was an originals band with something unique, that had a great following, and never sought fame and wealth AFAIK, until it happened one day.

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1473075597' post='3126572'] That's an interesting point, but what would be an alternative measure of quality?

In a band context, isn't the most important thing entertainment, in which case popularity would seem to be a good metric? I've no doubt we could have a very worthy academic discussion about the 'quality' of a piece of music but if a three chord ditty is enjoyed by more people then what's the point?[/quote]

Two things that are tough to define in philosophy : quality and truth. Robert Pirsig had had a good go at defining some kind of structure for 'what is quality?' whereas many others gave up over hundreds of years. Pirsig assigned a hierarchy (I hope he's not reading !), in which social quality, such as fame and popularity, is trumped by 'self-fulfilment' or intellectual quality such as appreciation of harmonic progression or lyrical meaning or art - but not all people operate within the 'self actualised' domain for much of the time. Hence, for most people, quality and popularity/fame are always effectively the same thing. But there is a higher plane, most musicians know of course. So depends whether we get this, personally, as to whether we think Mustang Sally beats Mahler's 6th for musical quality........the answer would be obvious (but different) and deeply split for the population.

You did ask !

I'm a Mahler 6th dude. Others would say Mustang Sally.

LD

Edited September 5, 2016 by luckydog

[TimR]

I'm pretty sure more than three men and their dog listen to Mahler.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Funky Dunky' timestamp='1472982134' post='3125692']
People don't go out at weekends the way they used to.
[/quote]

That's a completely lame excuse.

[JTUK]

Around here, the weekend just gone is pretty much the busiest of the year...with bands reporting bumper crowds. Of course, that would impact some gigs as well.

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1473076893' post='3126590']
As I said in my very brief previous post I think a lot of the "blame" unfortunately lies with the attitude of Leicester audiences towards out of town bands.
...
So sorry Leicester, but on the strength of my experiences you are a sh*t audience for lesser-known bands.

[/quote]

Thanks for elaborating on that one. I'd been hoping to drag Cherry White back up to the East Mids in the near future, but based on your experience I might give Leicester a miss and focus our efforts more on Derby and Notts. Useful to be able to find these things out in advance!

[4stringslow]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1473078919' post='3126624']
I'm pretty sure more than three men and their dog listen to Mahler.
[/quote]

Probably, and probably even more listen to Mustang Sally

Interesting points LD and I entirely agree that most musicians can judge quality of music over popularity, but this thread is about playing to near-empty venues, which suggests that popularity is the key for band success. Even if they play high quality but 'obscure' music, they still need to be 'popular' enough to fill the venue being played and the more obscure the material probably the wider catchment area they will need to draw their audience from, making it more difficult than playing classic covers.

We play mostly original songs but I'll freely admit they're more derivative than ground breaking, though we've not yet been sued for plagiarism . As for their musical quality, some of them have five chords . . .

Edited September 5, 2016 by 4stringslow

[BigRedX]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1472990604' post='3125790']
what's the age of your band? I'm afraid with very few exceptions bands tend to attract the same age group as themselves and older folk, generally, aren't interested in new music, I've said it before, but as rule of thumb, if you've not 'made it' by the time you're 30 it's very unlikely that you will. That's not to say you shouldn't make new music, but it'll be only for yourself and a few followers, my band are working on our next CD but I don't really expect to sell more than a few hundred.
[/quote]

IME age has very little to do with it.

You only have to look at the number of "younger' musicians on here who hold the music created when their parent's were teenagers in the same reverence, to know that.

We attract an audience of pretty much all ages, and for every old punk/psychobilly who likes us because they are also a fan of the bands that we take our influences from; there's someone in their late teens early 20s from whom all of this is as new and exciting as it was for me back in the 70s and 80s.

[NancyJohnson]

I think our regular audience is 20-40 people. Happy enough with that. I like playing mid-bill; the meat in the sandwich...hangers on from the openers, people in for the headliners. Usually get a few Facebook likes off the back of it. I'm done with the headline -wannabee malarky. I really don't want to play to 2 people anymore.