TH500 and lack of punch

[skychaserhigh]

Indeed , my ABM 300 which I bought 15 years ago has never been short of tone , punch or power , unlike the class D heads I used for a while.
My Ampeg SVT 6 pro has even more power but I never need to run it hard. The micro amps are ok for convenience but in my experience are no match for an A/B amp.....unless I'm imagining it of course !!

[Opticaleye]

I regularly play through a TH500 through SL112's and I find the sound lacks authority. Nice tone but very wishy washy in a band mix. I don't know how much this has to do with the cabs though.
I've tried a few ICE powered heads and none sound good to me. My Markbass TTE however is much better and has all the h*ft that I could want and excellent vintage tone.
I'm expecting a delivery today of my new Quilter Bass Block 800 (which also doesn't have the Ice module) which I've heard great things about.

[Opticaleye]

I've also owned both types of Markbass 2x10's (that are still available) and they most certainly did not lack punch with my LM2.

[Sibob]

Getting back to the o/p, just curious as to why the amp is the first thing you believe to be at fault? As has been mentioned, perhaps it's the cabs?! perhaps it's the bass?!
The other tell is that you say "[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][b]but at times,[/b] it becomes impossible to dial in a sound with punch...", suggesting that at other times, it sounds fine?!......so perhaps it's the room the gig is in that sounds bad?! [/font][/color]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Other things to consider, who are you playing with?! If there are two guitarists who are EQ [/font][/color][font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"]poorly in relation to you, plus a keyboard player playing low notes, all bad times.[/color][/font]

[font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"]​It might well be the amp, but seems to be that there are a lot of variables here?![/color][/font]

[font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"]Si[/color][/font]

[Dood]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1473670848' post='3132033']
This definitely isn't a dig at you Dood, but it's funny how, in this this world of micro amps, we're used to talking about upgrading from 500w to 800w without batting an eyelid.

This would have been pretty much unheard of when old-school AB amps were the norm, unless you were a touring pro. There was just no need for it.

It makes you wonder what's [i]really[/i] going on under the hood of the Class D's.

*cough* TC *cough*
[/quote]

No dig taken whatsoever! I think when it comes to D Class amp design though, Phil is on to something below. - In terms of power rating jumps, it's worth a mention in the thread generally that our hearing works logarithmically and thus to be truly double in volume we need ten times the power in Watts*. Hopefully I am right in saying this is a volume increase of +6dB. Which if this pans out in the real world verses theory, jumping from 100W to 200W bass amps is utterly pointless? Hmmm!

(*Or, to be heard add more speakers) - The original Ampeg 8x10 cabinet I believe only had 35W cones in? So they had to use clusters of them to be heard.


[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1473673036' post='3132054']
This is getting to the nub of the issue I reckon. I've no doubt that if you took a 3000W class D PA amp through an 8x10 and drove it from a Sansamp then you'd be happy with the 'heft'. I really don't think there is a problem per-se with class D. There seems to me to be a couple of problems 'under the hood' though.

The first is the problem with the power supplies, also switch mode and also lightweight. I think too many of these are probably underpowered and are unable to provide the 500W for more than a few thousandths of a second. Fine for a PA amp where you want undistorted sound but for a bassist regularly driving into distortion it'd feel like the class D amp was running out of steam. Of course there were class A/B amps with underpowered power supplies too. You get what you pay for here as well so it wouldn't be surprising to find expensive lightweight amps have better power supplies and seem punchier.

The second thing is that going lightweight only makes sense if you trade in both speakers and amps. It's pushing it to get enough sound out of a little speaker and you need something fairly exotic to get enough sound out of a 2x10. You are going to get an awful lot more decibels out of an 8x10. With a mid-price 2x10 you simply don't have the headroom to start giving 6dB 0f bass boost for instance so if your preference is for that sort of eq you are going to have problems.

So I think dood is right, it's the speakers that need some thought, or perhaps the speaker/amp combination or even the speaker/amp/bass interaction.
[/quote]

Edited September 12, 2016 by dood

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Opticaleye' timestamp='1473674223' post='3132072']
I regularly play through a TH500 through SL112's and I find the sound lacks authority. Nice tone but very wishy washy in a band mix. I don't know how much this has to do with the cabs though.
I've tried a few ICE powered heads and none sound good to me. My Markbass TTE however is much better and has all the h*ft that I could want and excellent vintage tone.
I'm expecting a delivery today of my new Quilter Bass Block 800 (which also doesn't have the Ice module) which I've heard great things about.
[/quote]

Interested to know about the Quilter. I'm surprised their guitar line isn't more present on the UK market.

I'm in the USA soon so I may get one to stash in hand luggage.

[wateroftyne]

This is interesting. Until fairly recently, posts suggesting that micro heads lack 'something' have usually treated with hoots of derision. Over the last year or so though, I've noticed that the responses are just as likely to come from players who feel the same.

So.. either there's something in it, or the 'imagining it' thing is contagious...

[Sibob]

I just think there's certain combinations of basses/amps/cabs that work and some that don't.
There is absolutely no lack of 'heft' (however subjective) from my Precision/Jazz/LMK800/Barefaced rig

I felt there was a distinct lack of 'heft' (however subjective) when I used to run my old Jazz or Warwick into an Ashdown ABMII 500 into a 4x8 & 1x15 Ashdown Mini rig.....go figure

Si

[Ghost_Bass]

Jazz into TH500 into MB cabs and you get a nasal sound... well, IMO the amp is the less culprit of this. MB cabs have their own voicing and they tend to be very nasal and lack that full range definition. A Jazz can also sound nasal very easilly. I would try different bass/cabs before dissing the amp.
IME that amp should be able to have more than enough "heft" [u]on stage[/u] (unless you're not going through PA), i have the same power amp module in a different brand (GB Shuttle 9.2) and i have all the low end i need on stage.

[Muzz]

Before the pitchforks-and-torches gather too readily*, I'd also look at the 'at times' thing from the OP - were there any common factors with the lack of 'punch'? We've all been in rooms/halls/tents where we've needed to re-EQ (boost and cut) to cope with the environment, and some places are just a nightmare. If this was all about Class D (which is the way the thread's gone disappointingly quickly) then it'd be apparent more consistently? Something to consider, anyway.

That said, I recently played with a TH500 (one of the few common heads I hadn't tried) and found it wasn't for me. The Walkabout definitely had more going on. But then I think the Magellan has at least as much going on as the Walkabout...


* And yeah, we've all got our preferences, personally I've A-B'd an awful lot of Class D and bigger, heavier heads and there's been winners and losers. Cabs are a big factor, too.

[Musicman20]

In terms of punch and heft of different types of amplifier, I have owned all types, in that I've owned:

- Trace GP12SMX400
- Orange AD 200b Mk3
- LMIII
- Shuttle 9.0
- TC RH450
- TC RH750 (still own)
- Shuttlemax 9.2 (still own)
- Streamliner 900 (still own)

The Trace was loud, no doubt, as we all know.

The Orange would 'seem' much louder than the Trace, so if we are discussing solid state (non-class D) vs tube, the tube would 'appear' much louder and richer.

All of the micros have been, for me, very loud. Yes, even the RH450/750.

Punch for me is the low mid / high bass kick.....Jazz Basses don't exhibit that naturally as well as a Stingray or P Bass if both pickups are on. IME etc.

I sold the Trace after walking from my car to my parents house some time ago. I almost caused my hand an injury trying to get the amp out of the boot into the house. Amp nearly fell to the ground, I managed to stop it, injured hand...could have been worse. Sold it after this....

The Genz Shuttlemax does everything the Trace did and it actually better. It punches with a SUPERB clean channel. I love it.

The Streamliner has a lovely finesse over the tone, like a tube studio pre-amp. Smooth and warm, but will grunt if you need it to.

The RH750 is like a flexible Ampeg.

I think tubes are LESS of a necessity for bass playing. A good quality solid state amp is actually often more favourable in tone. I do like a nice tube tone, but it's easier on bass to get it sounding good.

Guitar is another thing...the overdrive is a MUCH more complex subject.

My take? That TH500 should punch like crazy....the poweramp in that is actually in the GK MB800 I believe?!?!

The Markbass cabinets are voiced a little odd, or so I'm told.

I do also think there is a tendency to get a micro amp and a micro cab. Try that TH500 into a high quality 2x12 and it will sound huge...

Edited September 12, 2016 by Musicman20

[catmanhog]

Really pleased with the responses so far!
I have mostly played with a Japanese jazz bass - had custom shop Fender 60's pick up's installed about 2 years ago.
I am aware that the jazz has less growl than a P, i do prefer a jazz in terms of sound and feel.
Play mostly with a very compact 4 piece, volume wise it never struggles but at times there is very little bottom end - again, reputation of the Jazz perhaps but given the random rooms & circumstances, the alleged reputation of the TH500 & Markbass cabs....it just seems there should be more!
Don't want to go crazy with the volume and make matters worse. Bass wise, i am rolling off / blending treble and pick up's to suit the songs.

[Opticaleye]

The Quilter has arrived I will post later in another thread but early impressions are that it has massive punch. I'm going back to try it some more !!

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Opticaleye' timestamp='1473679942' post='3132147']
The Quilter has arrived I will post later in another thread but early impressions are that it has massive punch. I'm going back to try it some more !!
[/quote]

Great!!!

[Muzz]

[quote name='catmanhog' timestamp='1473679878' post='3132145']
Really pleased with the responses so far!
I have mostly played with a Japanese jazz bass - had custom shop Fender 60's pick up's installed about 2 years ago.
I am aware that the jazz has less growl than a P, i do prefer a jazz in terms of sound and feel.
Play mostly with a very compact 4 piece, volume wise it never struggles but at times there is very little bottom end - again, reputation of the Jazz perhaps but given the random rooms & circumstances, the alleged reputation of the TH500 & Markbass cabs....it just seems there should be more!
Don't want to go crazy with the volume and make matters worse. Bass wise, i am rolling off / blending treble and pick up's to suit the songs.
[/quote]

Soooo, is it 'punch' (which most people consider higher up the sound spectrum) or the bottom end you're missing? Does the bottom end fill out if you use just the neck pickup? Which model of MB 210s are they? Do you walk away from you amp while you're playing to hear how it's projecting into the room? Does it always sound the same (good or bad) in a particular room, or is it all random?

[catmanhog]

It can be both - but the thing i miss the most is bottom end - given it's old school soul, maybe i am too aware of it...
I usually end any soundcheck out front to try and get a decent perspective and it can be very random. I can accept that from rooms, sometimes i plug in and it's fine but others, i get the odd comment about having more bottom end or presence and i can understand that because it's true.
I use two traveller cabs, they are great for the venues because being able to stack up is a bonus at times! have also tried them a la 4x10, raised up, pointing in different directions....i have heard other jazz players with a great presence / bottom end, it just seems at times the TH500, despite the reputation for tone & the preamp, isn't quite there - i have had a few afternoon trying to get to the bottom of it, think i have it sorted and then.....back to square one.

[progben]

I have this problem with mine too, although I've realised that what sounds 'correct' to me is not always what sounds right in a band situation (plus the EQ requires some extra thought in comparison to other amps).

My experience with the TH500 improved significantly when my guitarist dialled back his bass, upped his mids and treble and gave me the room to take up the entire lower mid/bass frequencies.

I found that beforehand, I was dialling in too many mids (on what is already a mid-baked amp), hence the nasal and separated sound I was getting.

Hope this helps in some way, although it might not be entirely applicable to the OP.

[progben]

For reference, I play with Drive @ 3, Gain @ 9, Bass @ 1, Treble @ 9, Low Mids boosted slightly and this seems to work in most situations for me. I then make adjustments to the bass's pre-amp for tweaks between songs live.

[Muzz]

If it was the amp, it'd fail to produce the lows all the time - if you're getting them some places, then there's the possibility you're getting reinforcement from the environment, but then I'd think you'd experience booming more than that, anyway.

Those traveller cabs are relatively small and rear ported, which is something to bear in mind - they aren't exactly designed for big lows.

I'd try one or two different cabs before blaming the amp. When you're lacking the lows, what happens when you dial in the bottom end on the TH?

[catmanhog]

I becomes wooly and boomy, which leads to much moving of cab position & being tempted by the EQ once more!

Thanks for the info, Progben.

[Muzz]

The wooly's possibly a different thing, depending on where the rest of the EQ is, but boomy would suggest the stage environment is the issue. I've had to simply forego onstage bottom end before now because of the room - do you go through the PA?

While I'm thinking on, I know you said you'd stacked your cabs differently, when you're getting boomy, have you tried lifting them up off the stage?

Edited September 12, 2016 by Muzz

[progben]

[quote name='catmanhog' timestamp='1473682395' post='3132184']
I becomes wooly and boomy, which leads to much moving of cab position & being tempted by the EQ once more!

Thanks for the info, Progben.
[/quote]

No problem buddy!

[catmanhog]

One band does use the P.A - there are many issues there in terms of other people's volume tbh but it really comes to the fore with the smaller band.
I have had them on chairs, beer crates, spaced apart...depending on how much room you end up with and that's where the traveller win's out, when you can stack up and save footprint in the band environment.
Thinking about borrowing something a little more generic for my next gig to see if something like an ABM 500 gives me something a bit more honest.

[Muzz]

OK, you seem to have made your mind up it's the amp. Good luck with it, hope you get a result with the cabs.

[wateroftyne]

IME the issue isn't volume - sure, these amps *sound* like 500w. But they don't *feel* like it. So you turn 'enup to compensate... only it doesn't. It just gets louder.

The big difference with traditional amps is they're just 'there', solid and present, at a reasonable volume.