TH500 and lack of punch

[JTUK]

.[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1473677386' post='3132116']
This is interesting. Until fairly recently, posts suggesting that micro heads lack 'something' have usually treated with hoots of derision. Over the last year or so though, I've noticed that the responses are just as likely to come from players who feel the same.

So.. either there's something in it, or the 'imagining it' thing is contagious...
[/quote]
happens quite a bit here. U-turns..who'd have 'em?

[Muzz]

As I mentioned earlier, it's a shame how the thread's turned into a Class D bash (again), when the OP's posts don't seem quite as clear-cut as that...he has an issue some of the time with not enough low end, and experiences boominess and wooliness when boosting said bottom end to compensate. Sometimes.

Bound to be a power stage issue...

Having said that, he'll probably fire up the ABM500 and the problem'll go away...

[progben]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1473691879' post='3132297']
As I mentioned earlier, it's a shame how the thread's turned into a Class D bash (again), when the OP's posts don't seem quite as clear-cut as that...he has an issue some of the time with not enough low end, and experiences boominess and wooliness when boosting said bottom end to compensate. Sometimes.

Bound to be a power stage issue...

Having said that, he'll probably fire up the ABM500 and the problem'll go away...
[/quote]

Yeah, less of the Class D bashing guys. To be honest, it could be just down to the middy warmness of the TH500 not really gelling with the cab/bass/rooms/other elements.

My suggestion is tweak the Tonehammer some more (maybe scoop nearly all of the midrange and add some Drive?), then (if a low weight is important to you, as it is for me), try another, more neutral voiced Class D.

If that fails, then stuff it - let the Class D bashing continue.

[Lw.]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1473691879' post='3132297']
As I mentioned earlier, it's a shame how the thread's turned into a Class D bash (again)
[/quote]

I really don't think it has, people can suggest trying something else without it turning into a "bashing". Class-D is great in some situations & really helps some people out in terms of lifting/moving but everything is a balance & I don't feel class-D is a silver bullet providing everything we had before only removing the weight - there has to be compromise in there somewhere.

[quote name='progben' timestamp='1473692556' post='3132306']
My suggestion is tweak the Tonehammer some more (maybe scoop nearly all of the midrange and add some Drive?),
[/quote]

Scoop the mids to add punch?! :-/

[Sibob]

As has been mentioned, you may simply just not like the tone of the Tone Hammer (ironically)?!
I had a Genz Benz Streamerliner 900, which may others swear by (including in this thread), I thought it was absolutely awful, not a useable tone in it for me. Switch back to my Mark Bass, same cab as the GB, tonal heaven again.

Si

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1473623849' post='3131793']
Hmmm... If I wanted to restore punch I would replace the Jazz with a Precision. You can make a P sound nasal but it's much easier with a J!
[/quote]Just what I was thinking. Jazz does not have the bottom end to give an amp a chance.

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1473623849' post='3131793']
Hmmm... If I wanted to restore punch I would replace the Jazz with a Precision. You can make a P sound nasal but it's much easier with a J!
[/quote]Just what I was thinking. Jazz does not have the bottom end to give an amp a chance.

[wateroftyne]

Jazzes have more bottom end than a P. It's just in the wrong place :-)

[Musicman20]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1473695460' post='3132348']
Jazzes have more bottom end than a P. It's just in the wrong place :-)
[/quote]

True. Jazz bass, with both pickups on, seem to have a lot more deep low end, whereas a Precision has more of a thick high bass/low mid thump which is perfect for band work.

[Chienmortbb]

The problem with Class D is a marketing problem more than a real one. ICEPower modules come in all wattages and sizes as do most amplifier modules. The ratings are often based on hi fidelity. Having started my own build using a class D amp I can tell you that the specs are a nightmare to decipher but there is nothing inherently wrong with Class D.

The module used in the Tonehammer 500 is rated at 500 watts but for m music reproduction. This is from the data sheet:

"[font=Flama][size=1]The ICEpower250ASX2 module is designed for music reproduction, which means that the output power of the amplifier will never be continuous. Research has shown that the RMS level of any music signal does not normally exceed 1/8[/size][/font][font=Flama][size=1]th [/size][/font][font=Flama][size=1]of the peak value and the power supply is therefore designed for large short-term power handling and lower continuous power handling. If the average output power of the ICEpower250ASX2 exceeds 60W @ 4[/size][/font][font=Symbol][size=1]Ω [/size][/font][font=Flama][size=1](SE-mode with both channels driven) or 180W @ 8[/size][/font][font=Symbol][size=1]Ω [/size][/font][font=Flama][size=1](BTL-mode) for a long time at 25°C ambient temperature, the module will reach its maximum allowable temperature and the temperature protection will be activated. [/size][/font] "

There are only two ways to get temperature down, more metal in the shape of a large additional heatsink and/or forced air cooling (fans). In my opinion, and it is only mine, there is not enough heat sinking to allow the fans to do their job properly on the TH500. In my own build of a non-ICEpower based amp, I have almost trebled the heatsinking area. This is because, like the ICEpower modules, the thermal calculations are based on music reproduction. For MI use, especially bass, you need more continuous power and that means more het dissipation and more attention to thermal design.

In addition the Tonehammer has its own "sound" and that is in effect pre-dialled EQ. Anything off flat will limit what you can get access the range from an amp. class D modules are a too for the amp designer but they need to use the properly to get the most from the module. Below is my part built amp. the two silver lumps are extra heatsinks and the heatsinking on this module is already better, although unseen, than the ASX250 used by Aquilar. In addition there will be a fan that will switch on as heat rises to ensure the the amp runs cool, it is under the main model drawing cool air in and cannot be seen.

Of course many people are more than satisfied by the TH500 and who am I to say they are wrong. Many renowned amps such as the Glockengangs use Class D modules and I have never seen complaint about those.

In the end if you want a really lightweight amp, weighing a couple of kilos, or under 4.5 lbs, it may not fill your boots with warm silky bass.

Finally if you feel you are not getting enough from your amp, it may be your cabs. Bill Fitzmaurice uses a fairly low powered Ashdown (sorry ~Bill `i forgot the model) with one of his very efficient Jack Speakers and he probably has more "heft" than you could shake a 35"scale bass neck at.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Chienmortbb

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='LayDownThaFunk' timestamp='1473622916' post='3131784']
Buy a DI/Preamp pedal... this whole 'heft' thing is rubbish. Most these guys change heads every year so what do they know?
[/quote]

Hmmm a quick check and I've been using Thunderfunk heads (initially the 550 now the 750) for 9 years.

The fact that I've been prepared to try/buy other brands inc multiple Class D amps would probably indicate that I'm qualified to discuss what 'I' hear and note about the amps I've tried.

[Marvin]

Power amp aside, the Tonehammer preamp is a knob twiddlers heaven. If you're into forever twisting your knobs, buy a Tonehammer. It takes a bit of getting used to and even then it's a bit of a marmite amp. It is though very loud. I did a gig a couple of weeks back, 250 cap (so not big), drums and 2 guitars were mic'd going through the PA. I wasn't going through PA but was dominant in the mix (and that was through 212 using the TH350).

If you don't like it, move it on, maybe move the cab on as well.

[catmanhog]

I have no wish to go back to dragging hefty equipment at midnight through car parks & late night disco's so hoping it can be sorted out.
There are a large number of variables in the problem and i don't discount myself from any of it - something has to give in terms of sound quality when you play at a particular level anyhow, it's just so frustrating.
Maybe i will just buy a bass synth ! .
Only joking....thanks for the input everyone.

[Conan]

I experienced a real eye-opener last week when I changed cabs from my Barefaced Compact (Gen 2) to [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/289314-acoustic-406-ev-2x15-for-sale/page__p__3126767__hl__acoustic__fromsearch__1#entry3126767"]this[/url].

The amp (Markbass LM2) was left exactly the same, except for having to turn the master volume down significantly! The difference in sound was quite remarkable. Not "louder" exactly, but just so much more tone, presence and authority - much greater harmonic richness.

If I was ten years younger and gigged more often, I would have bought it, but at my stage in life I am happy with the compromises that my lightweight rig offers.

On the other hand, I used a TH500 through a Barefaced Big One a while back, and I just couldn't get them to play nicely together at all! See here for a bit of ancient history... http://basschat.co.uk/topic/257641-aguilar-th500-distortion-issues/page__hl__th500

This just demonstrates the difference that the cabs can make

Edited September 13, 2016 by Conan

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1473750208' post='3132685']
I experienced a real eye-opener last week when I changed cabs from my Barefaced Compact (Gen 2) to [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/289314-acoustic-406-ev-2x15-for-sale/page__p__3126767__hl__acoustic__fromsearch__1#entry3126767"]this[/url].

The amp (Markbass LM2) was left exactly the same, except for having to turn the master volume down significantly! The difference in sound was quite remarkable. Not "louder" exactly, but just so much more tone, presence and authority - much greater harmonic richness.

If I was ten years younger and gigged more often, I would have bought it, but at my stage in life I am happy with the compromises that my lightweight rig offers.

On the other hand, I used a TH500 through a Barefaced Big One a while back, and I just couldn't get them to play nicely together at all! See here for a bit of ancient history... [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/257641-aguilar-th500-distortion-issues/page__hl__th500"]http://basschat.co.u...page__hl__th500[/url]

This just demonstrates the difference that the cabs can make
[/quote]

Switching from a 1x15 to a 2x15 is bound to make a significant difference... and a ceramic one at that (but let's not go down that route! )

[chris_b]

[quote name='catmanhog' timestamp='1473613375' post='3131667']
Been using a TH500 for about a year and at times, it lacks punch - i play mostly old school soul through the TH500,
2 Markbass 2x10's and mostly a jazz bass but at times, it becomes impossible to dial in a sound with punch and it honestly sounds nasal rather than anything else....
[/quote]

I read the first page of this thread and decided to skip the rest. I apologise if this has been covered. "At times" seems to indicate that at [i]other[/i] times the rig sounds fine. How often does this problem occur? What happens when it doesn't sound good? Is it in a particular room? A particular band or song? If you can work out where the difference is then you got this problem sorted.

For any amp, if you want to get a less nasal tone dial out the high mids; more punch, dial in low mids.

As others have said, the pairing of the TH500 and your cabs or the tone out of the J could be the problem. You have good gear but some pieces sit well together right out of the box and others need working on to dial in the sound you want. I've heard players getting a great sound with MB cabs and an LM2/3, but IMO the Travellers can sound "thinner" than the Standard cabs.

Where do you play the strings? Closer to the bridge could be more nasal. I play over the P or J neck pickup and the sound is fuller and rounder. My amp TH500 usually sounds great but in some rooms I can't get a good sound. On those gigs you just do the best you can and accept that if it sounds good out front then that's got to be good enough.

I've used a TH500 for a couple of years and I can find tone and punch for days. IME the only thing the TH500 doesn't do is zing. I used Bergantino cabs and now use Barefaced. I play either a Lull PJ5 (flats) or a Lakland 55-94 (rounds). Totally different basses which get a great sound in a Soul band, or any other genre.

If this is an occasional problem then the sound is in there you've just got to find it on the bad gigs, but you've got a good starting point for Duck Dunn bass lines.

[Conan]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1473752898' post='3132702']
Switching from a 1x15 to a 2x15 is bound to make a significant difference...
[/quote]

Well, yes - and the drop from 8 ohms to 4... but I did used to have a Barefaced Vintage remember, so I am used to what a 2x15 is capable of!

So maybe the big difference I noticed is (at least partly) down to Neo vs ceramic. And cab design... It wasn't just "more" output, but a very different sound all round. I preferred it, but maybe not everyone would have?

Edited September 13, 2016 by Conan

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1473763979' post='3132843']
Well, yes - and the drop from 8 ohms to 4... but I did used to have a Barefaced Vintage remember, so I am used to what a 2x15 is capable of!
[/quote]

Yeah, the BF Vintage is a great cab. I really enjoyed using it when I had a loan of one.

IMO the key thing you mentioned in your post earlier is 'presence'. It's hard to describe, but it's like being more authoritative at half the volume. It's a nice feeling.

[JTUK]

If any piece of kit 'failed' me on more than a few occasions, I'd be thinking that kit doesn't work well enough for me and what I'm asking it to do.
I'm not than keen to adjust the amp as I know it sounds good so I'm really looking for the volume to be set and find the sweet spot on the Active Pre.
This is the true value of active, IMO... in that you have adjustment to hand on the bass, but again, you can't be constantly messing around with that..

The biggest BIGGEST effect on the sound from my POV, is the strings, and once they are off, then you are much more at the mercy of other varibles.

All the components have a sweet spot and that might be quite a wide sweep, but once the initial tone goes, that is when the problems begin to mount up.
For this reason, I rarely get bad rooms being a big factor and I don't get boom. The only times these would be a factor for me..and I know this ... is when the strings
aren't very responsive and more fool me if I haven't recitified this..

I've sold cabs and swapped out various other components for their lack of tolerance, or rather, their very very narrow sweet spot to make them work.
A classic case in point was the Fender Pre amp... I could get it sounding great BUT outside of that sweet spot, it wouldn't work for me, for love nor money.

It HAD to go..

[Conan]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1473770146' post='3132943']
Yeah, the BF Vintage is a great cab. I really enjoyed using it when I had a loan of one.
[/quote]

Yeah - that was mine!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1473772923' post='3132988']
Yeah - that was mine!
[/quote]

Was it? God, my memory. It's ruined....

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1473770258' post='3132944']
The biggest BIGGEST effect on the sound from my POV, is the strings, and once they are off, then you are much more at the mercy of other varibles.
[/quote]

Very true, string condition is a massive contributor to sound. I've used elixir nano webs exclusively for the last 15 years or so because they are the only ones I've come across that retain any harmonic content in the mid range over a many of months of regular use as opposed to a week or two for regular strings. I can quite get that some people using old knackered ones might well need a specific magic combination of gear with everything set "just so" to get a half decent sound since your not giving it much of a harmonic spectrum to work with.

Edited September 13, 2016 by bassman7755

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='progben' timestamp='1473681755' post='3132172']
For reference, I play with Drive @ 3, Gain @ 9, Bass @ 1, Treble @ 9, Low Mids boosted slightly and this seems to work in most situations for me. I then make adjustments to the bass's pre-amp for tweaks between songs live.
[/quote]

So ... your playing with the bass control at 1 and complaining thats its "[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]impossible to dial in a sound with punch and it honestly sounds nasal" .. am I missing something obvious ?.[/font][/color]

[skej21]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1473801157' post='3133308']


So ... your playing with the bass control at 1 and complaining thats its "[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]impossible to dial in a sound with punch and it honestly sounds nasal" .. am I missing something obvious ?.[/font][/color]
[/quote]

If the bass dial is at 1, I think that refers to '1 o'clock', meaning it would be boosted fractionally above the flat setting of '12 o'clock' (therefore '9' would be cutting the treble etc). That's how I would describe settings on my TH preamp as the knobs only turn from 'off' at about 7 o'clock up to 'full' at about 5 o'clock. Just a thought, or maybe I am also missing something obvious?! Lol.

[Guest bassman7755]

Fair enough if indeed that is the case.