Percieved loudness.

[NancyJohnson]

Such a thing?

Been using Hartke Hydrives for about five or six years (or maybe seven!), 8 ohm 4x10 & 2x10, I've been 100% happy with things and I'm always been told 'your bass sounds great'. More recently been playing a handful of under-card gigs where I'm forced into using other guys enclosures and have noticed that with my rack gear settings in their usual positions I do appear to be [i]louder[/i]. Obviously, [i]louder [/i]can be construed to apply tonally fuller (and so forth). I know there's potentially ohm-science stuff could be going on, that frequency range of cabinets differ significantly and that the actual position of the cabinet can affect tone...the 4x10 is also on castors, so it's reasonably isolated from the floor. I stuck my gear through a battered old Peavey 4x10 at a rehearsal place recently and was genuinely shocked at how phat and loud and rich things sounded. Maybe it's my ears. Maybe it's my cabs.

Look, I'll admit that the Hartkes are bright, there's a three way rocker switch on the rear of the cabinet that changes the attenuation of the horn, but I am beginning to wonder whether it's worth taking a punt on a Barefaced 2x12 or something (although I do like bigger cabinetry behind me). Might be worth taking a trip to Brighton.
P

[molan]

Could be a whole number of things really.

One thing to check might be speaker sensitivity. Using cabs with higher sensitivity will sound louder - a 3db gain in sensitivity makes a huge difference.

If you're after a completely different tone then there's lots of potential cabs out there. Be sure to test them back to back with your existing setup though.

However, if all you want is 'loudness' I'd just turn your amp up - that's a lot cheaper than throwing money at new cabs

[Dood]

The Hartke cabinets are less sensitive than some - that is, the volume they put out verses the signal amplitude going in. I wouldn't say it's anything to worry about, just turn the volume up a bit, unless of course your amp is running out of steam.

[Dood]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1474278682' post='3136653']
Could be a whole number of things really.

One thing to check might be speaker sensitivity. Using cabs with higher sensitivity will sound louder - a 3db gain in sensitivity makes a huge difference.

If you're after a completely different tone then there's lots of potential cabs out there. Be sure to test them back to back with your existing setup though.

However, if all you want is 'loudness' I'd just turn your amp up - that's a lot cheaper than throwing money at new cabs
[/quote]

Ah! ha ha! You typed the same as me at the same time

Edited September 19, 2016 by dood

[Beer of the Bass]

Are the Hydrive cabs sealed? That might explain the difference in low end efficiency with other cabs.

[chris_b]

I changed cabs from a 212 Bergantino to 2 112 Barefaced cabs and I had to turn the amp down, from 12 o'clock to 10, to get the same volume. Some cabs are better than others in turning their power into SPL, but volume is the easy bit. Getting a cab that sounds good is the goal.

Alex has smaller cabs that will be louder and clearer than your current 610. Your sound will change (IMO probably a significant improvement) so I'd drop him a text and discuss your sound.

[discreet]

[quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1474278161' post='3136647']
I am beginning to wonder whether it's worth taking a punt on a Barefaced 2x12 or something (although I do like bigger cabinetry behind me).
[/quote]

A Barefaced 2X12 [u]IS[/u] bigger cabinetry! ...All is relative.

[EBS_freak]

The other thing to be wary of is manufacturers that time the cabinet with a distinct midrange hump. This cons the ear into thinking its a lot louder than the next cab.

[molan]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1474284909' post='3136747']
The other thing to be wary of is manufacturers that time the cabinet with a distinct midrange hump. This cons the ear into thinking its a lot louder than the next cab.
[/quote]

You beat me to it, lol.

Totally agree, there are a few manufacturers who build in mid-range humps to increased perceived loudness.

To my ears they tend to sound bloody horrible. Nasal, harsh and 'gritty but they do appear 'louder' and this makes some people really like them because of the old 'louder = better' argument

[molan]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1474278801' post='3136656']
Ah! ha ha! You typed the same as me at the same time
[/quote]

Great minds think alike eh Dood

[Marvin]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1474279495' post='3136669']
Are the Hydrive cabs sealed? That might explain the difference in low end efficiency with other cabs.
[/quote]

The 410s are sealed. I'm not sure about the 210s but the 115s are ported.

[HowieBass]

Maybe you ought to look out for a battered old Peavey 4x10...

[NancyJohnson]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1474287156' post='3136781']
The 410s are sealed. I'm not sure about the 210s but the 115s are ported.
[/quote]

The 115 and the 210 enclosures are both sealed.

[markstuk]

lots of cabs to play with on Saturday at the bash..

[Lozz196]

Those Peavey 410TVX cabs are immense, one of my fave cabs ever, but sooooooooooo heavy.

[Dan Dare]

You say "I've been 100% happy with things and I'm always been told 'your bass sounds great". I'd think very hard about whether a change is needed. Others' comments above are all sound sense. Sometimes, we can hear something different and forget how good what we already have is because we're so used to it. I'd defo do some A/B comparison with your existing kit before spending money.

[Phil Starr]

I share the view of the old Peavey cabs, I have an old 15BXBW which goes in the rehearsal room and sounds fab with whatever amp I use. I've never dreamed of carrying the thing to a gig though.

The science bit is interesting and i've not seen much discussion of it here in recent times. There's plenty of talk about watts, rather less about decibels and the poor old Phon is rarely mentioned. Obviously the ease with which a speaker turns electrical power into sound is important and that's where the decibels come in. A speaker which needs one watt to turn out 100dB is going to be a lot louder than one which only produces 94dB from one watt and in fact will need four times the power to produce the same volume. So yes, one speaker could objectively be much louder than another.

However speakers are rarely really good at producing a flat response. That can affect our perception of 'loudness' just as much as the speakers efficiency. Our ears work best when we are listening to the frequencies of the human voice, or thereabouts. That obviously makes evolutionary sense especially as it also gives us a great chance of detecting most other natural hazards around us. We can't really hear low frequencies at all well and our upper hearing limit isn't great either. If you are young enough to still be able to hear above 10kHz you won't hear as well as in the midrange. There are graphs of equal loudness out there to see this effect [url="https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Lindos1.svg/400px-Lindos1.svg.png&imgrefurl=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour&h=359&w=400&tbnid=qepxq0BZAnKbaM:&tbnh=160&tbnw=178&docid=0DQDz2baTAH4IM&usg=__GhsSRuVKl54U1PMK9YCOvE92mF8=&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwik37H12JvPAhXqAcAKHbzfCksQ9QEIIjAA"]https://www.google.c...bzfCksQ9QEIIjAA[/url] So the Phon measures sounds of equal loudness whatever their frequency, you never see sound levels measured this way but it certainly explains why some cabs and amps have a reputation for 'loudness' out of all relationship to their specs, Marshall 4x12 anyone?

So if you wanted to manufacture something loud all you need to do is emphasise the mid frequencies around 1-4kHz. A 3db hump in here is going to make the speaker sound a whole lot louder. I'd argue a little with molan though. Most of us prefer a slight mid peak as it makes the bass sound punchier and more articulate. Truly flat speakers can sound a little dull. Something like the TKS 1126 has a 3dB boost at 1'5kHz [url="http://www.bassgear.co.uk/product/tks-engineering-1126-black-v-frame-silver-cloth/"]http://www.bassgear....e-silver-cloth/[/url] presumably deliberately as it has the 6" driver with a crossover and could have engineered this out. The trick is to get just the right amount of mids and with the peak wide and flat to avoid the nasal and gritty sound. Obviously not every design is going to be as successful with all basses though as they will all have their own peaks and suckouts.

[NancyJohnson]

My signal chain is Sansamp RBI > Matrix Amplification poweramp > Hartke cabinets.

Something that came to mind since starting this thread is that we did switch guitarists recently; while I know this shouldn't make a difference, the bew guy's tone is of a more clearer distortion rather than the muddy tone of the previous guy. My bass used to cut through a lot more previously; we really didn't own our frequency, so to speak.

I guess it's feasible that we also have a reversal in place here and maybe I just need to phatten up a bit.

[discreet]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1474285790' post='3136765']
...there are a few manufacturers who build in mid-range humps to increased perceived loudness. To my ears they tend to sound bloody horrible. Nasal, harsh and 'gritty but they do appear 'louder' and this makes some people really like them because of the old 'louder = better' argument
[/quote]

Mostly true, but I will vouch for the low-mid bump present in the Schroeder 1212L... yes, it sounds a little nasal when you play solo, but at a real-world gig, in a mix, that becomes very audible lushness and the cab sounds fantastic. A really great cab if you want to be heard live, regardless.

Edit: Great, now I've got Schroeder 1212L GAS.

Edited September 19, 2016 by discreet

[JTUK]

Don't always agree with Schroeder... for small gigs I think they do really well for such a small cab, but they can get lost out front when the band gets bigger.
I agree that they seem to have quite a profile amongst a lot of people but the mid bias may get chewed up when keys and gtrs are in the same space.
The low end then seems to get very cloudy and the bass is not doing the job it should do...certainly on the smaller cabs.

I wouldn't expect the larger cabs to suffer but if they do... and I know who uses them to check that out...then that is a fail.
Bass players like them because THEY can hear them... not so good if that doesn't transfer out front with support.

[Marty Forrer]

What it sounds like to you on stage is largely irrelevant. What it sounds like out in the audience is what counts. A 30ft lead or a wireless is the only test for a cab, so you can hear what the audience is hearing.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Marty Forrer' timestamp='1474324690' post='3137213']
What it sounds like to you on stage is largely irrelevant. What it sounds like out in the audience is what counts. A 30ft lead or a wireless is the only test for a cab, so you can hear what the audience is hearing.
[/quote]
And if you are going through the PA, the cab is irrelevant anyway.

[Muzz]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1474309107' post='3137022']
Mostly true, but I will vouch for the low-mid bump present in the Schroeder 1212L... yes, it sounds a little nasal when you play solo, but at a real-world gig, in a mix, that becomes very audible lushness and the cab sounds fantastic. A really great cab if you want to be heard live, regardless.

Edit: Great, now I've got Schroeder 1212L GAS.
[/quote]

Yep, I really liked my 1515L, and it sat very well in with a band mix, and that low-mid hump maintained a bass guitar presence [i]especially[/i] against two guitars and keyboards. At higher volumes the PA does the heavy lifting, anyway... I only sold it because I was usually standing on top of it, and it's only a small(ish) cab, so most of it was going at my knees (although it sounded much better out front) - two would have been perfect. I have a very strong hankering for more Schroeder stuff, now, too...

[discreet]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1474358282' post='3137290']
I have a very strong hankering for more Schroeder stuff, now, too...
[/quote]

I'm very happy with my Markbass/Barefaced rig, but so far the most interesting rig I've had was a G-K MB500 Fusion and a Schroeder 1212L. If you like growl, that particular combination growls like a bevy of bears at a growling party, and then some... this using a P Bass with flats! God knows what a very growly bass with rounds would have sounded like. Chuck Norris with a sore throat?

Edited September 20, 2016 by discreet

[Marvin]

[quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1474291298' post='3136854']
The 115 and the 210 enclosures are both sealed.
[/quote]

On the Hartke website it says the 115 (and the 112) are ported. Nothing said on the 410 and 210 page so assume they are both sealed

[quote][i]The HyDrive 115 is a ported cabinet..[/i].[/quote]