Percieved loudness.

[Jazzjames]

[quote name='Marty Forrer' timestamp='1474324690' post='3137213']
What it sounds like to you on stage is largely irrelevant. What it sounds like out in the audience is what counts. A 30ft lead or a wireless is the only test for a cab, so you can hear what the audience is hearing.
[/quote]

I can see your point of view but....

For me my cabs are there to move some air behind me, and the PA system is what supplies the audience with bass.

Agreed in smaller venues the rig has to do both, but if it doesnt sound good where I am, then I won't play well!

[Marvin]

I use my Schroeder 1212L with an Aguilar TH350.

At my last gig my set up wasn't going through the PA, however, the 2 guitars were (both 100w valve heads and 212 cabs) and so was some of the drum kit. The Schroeder did not get lost at all, quite the opposite, it could have been doing with backing off the volume. I was relying someone in the audience to gauge my volume, I chose a bass player, which was clearly the wrong choice . The venue was a good enough size, somewhere around the 250 capacity.

It did its job well, maybe too well. Schroeders (the earlier ones) don't focus on deep bass tones, but then I've always rolled them out anyway so not a problem for me.

At the festival we played before that I used a supplied Hartke LH500 and a Hartke AK410 cab. It was a very nice sound. The volume on the amp up around 2o'clock, so not a lot left.

[NancyJohnson]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1474368726' post='3137411']
On the Hartke website it says the 115 (and the 112) are ported. Nothing said on the 410 and 210 page so assume they are both sealed
[/quote]

Well that's news to me...I owned one until around 18 months ago (it never left the house). There didn't appear to be a vent anywhere, although I assume that it's feasible the port could have been a smallish opening (or two) on the facia that wasn't visible behind the grille.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Jazzjames' timestamp='1474369763' post='3137418']
I can see your point of view but....

For me my cabs are there to move some air behind me, and the PA system is what supplies the audience with bass.

Agreed in smaller venues the rig has to do both, but if it doesnt sound good where I am, then I won't play well!
[/quote]

Precisley..and neither might the band if they can't hear it well enough. If it sounds sh*** at source, chances are no one is rescuing that sound at any point..and do you know anyway..?

I never trust a sound man I don't know..he might be blinding, he easily might not.. That is assuming you have a sound man.

I have a list of engrs I wouldn't call again, and even if they freelance, (which they do) I would probably not like them on the gig.
Far better to have a list of Engrs you know can do the job..even with their own gear or hired in.

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1474384845' post='3137558']
Precisley..and neither might the band if they can't hear it well enough. If it sounds sh*** at source, chances are no one is rescuing that sound at any point..and do you know anyway..?

I never trust a sound man I don't know..he might be blinding, he easily might not.. That is assuming you have a sound man.

I have a list of engrs I wouldn't call again, and even if they freelance, (which they do) I would probably not like them on the gig.
Far better to have a list of Engrs you know can do the job..even with their own gear or hired in.
[/quote]Misuse of the word engineer? Sound man, sound tech maybe but an Engineer is a person qualified to degree level in their particular field of engineering. Sound mixing is an art. Whilst Engineers, can do art it is not engineering.

[Muzz]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1474373805' post='3137454']
I use my Schroeder 1212L with an Aguilar TH350.

At my last gig my set up wasn't going through the PA, however, the 2 guitars were (both 100w valve heads and 212 cabs) and so was some of the drum kit. The Schroeder did not get lost at all, quite the opposite, it could have been doing with backing off the volume. I was relying someone in the audience to gauge my volume, I chose a bass player, which was clearly the wrong choice . The venue was a good enough size, somewhere around the 250 capacity.

It did its job well, maybe too well. Schroeders (the earlier ones) don't focus on deep bass tones, but then I've always rolled them out anyway so not a problem for me.

At the festival we played before that I used a supplied Hartke LH500 and a Hartke AK410 cab. It was a very nice sound. The volume on the amp up around 2o'clock, so not a lot left.
[/quote]

One of the first gigs I played with the 1515L was a club, probably 200-250 people, but quite a tight stage. Played the first set, then the sound guy comes up to me to check what channel I'm in, because he's struggling to turn the bass down. I wasn't going through the PA - he'd forgotten to connect the XLR...

Edited September 20, 2016 by Muzz

[Chienmortbb]

Phil is right in what he says and what a joy it is, as an Electronics Engineer, to see the Phon quoted (no it is nothing to do with happy days dear).

The thing to take from this is while the ear (or at least the young ear) has a fantastic dynamic range and can hear (with varying degrees of efficiency/success) 20Hz to 20KHz, it has no or at lest very little memory. The same room the same equipment on successive days will sound different. So the guys are right. If you want to compare, take your old gear along to A/B.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Chienmortbb

[Passinwind]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1474373805' post='3137454']

It did its job well, maybe too well. Schroeders (the earlier ones) don't focus on deep bass tones, but then I've always rolled them out anyway so not a problem for me.

[/quote]
Depends on which early ones you mean. I had a 1210L that was all mids all the time, and then a 21012L that made tons of low bass and was pretty well balanced all in all. The 1210L was fantastic for one particular band situation at the time, but utterly hopeless at taking EQ if any other thing was desired. OTOH, the 21012L was great as long as you didn't ever have to move it. I never see Schro cabs around here any more though.

[Marvin]

[quote name='Passinwind' timestamp='1474391271' post='3137641']
Depends on which early ones you mean. I had a 1210L that was all mids all the time, and then a 21012L that made tons of low bass and was pretty well balanced all in all. The 1210L was fantastic for one particular band situation at the time, but utterly hopeless at taking EQ if any other thing was desired. OTOH, the 21012L was great as long as you didn't ever have to move it. I never see Schro cabs around here any more though.
[/quote]

I've got the 1212l, with the angled baffle. It's quite mid heavy. I've tried two different amps with it and although those mids are still there the head does make a noticeable difference

(the two heads were an Aguilar TH350 and an Ashdown ABM500. The Ashdown was less middy)

[gjones]

I bought a hydrive 112 which puts out 300 watts at 8 ohms. It is significantly quieter than both my Ashdown 115 and my Barefaced compact. The barefaced is significantly louder than either the Hartke, or the Ashdown.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[b] [size=4]Full Definition of [i]engineer[/i][/size][/b]
[list=1]
[*][i]1[/i] : a member of a military group devoted to [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/engineering"]engineering[/url] work
[*][i]2[/i] [i]obsolete[/i] : a crafty schemer : [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/plotter"]plotter[/url]
[*][i]3[/i] [i]a[/i] : a designer or builder of [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/engines"]engines[/url][i]b[/i] : a person who is trained in or follows as a profession a branch of engineering[i]c[/i] : a person who carries through an enterprise by skillful or artful contrivance
[*][i]4[/i] : a person who runs or supervises an [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/engine"]engine[/url] or an apparatus
[/list]
In this case the apparatus is the sound gear, so the term is correctly applied. In the US the guy running the board is commonly referred to as the FOH (front of house) engineer. I've worked with FOH engineers who were brilliant, and those who were total clods, and this was with first tier national and international touring acts. One of the worst I ever encountered worked for Ringo and his all-stars; he somehow managed to make Greg Lake sound really bad. Not surprisingly to me most of the best with respect to having the bass sound like the bass were themselves bass players.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[pete.young]

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1474386121' post='3137572']
.., an Engineer is a person qualified to degree level in their particular field of engineering.
[/quote]

In the UK, this is wishful thinking, usually on the part of people with engineering degrees. In other parts of Europe maybe, but here an engineer is someone who fixes washing machines.

The term [i]Engineering[/i] is derived from the Latin ingenium, meaning "cleverness" and ingeniare, meaning "to contrive, devise".

[NancyJohnson]

Just to add more to this, I won a Barefaced Big One (15/6) at this years SE Bass Bash. It sounds huge compared to the Hydrives.

Insofar as louder, I'd say (with the same settings applied), plugging my rack into the Barefaced, then into the Hartke units, the Barefaced is louder by a country mile.

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='pete.young' timestamp='1476782071' post='3157109']


In the UK, this is wishful thinking, usually on the part of people with engineering degrees. In other parts of Europe maybe, but here an engineer is someone w. ho fixes washing machines.

The term [i]Engineering[/i] is derived from the Latin ingenium, meaning "cleverness" and ingeniare, meaning "to contrive, devise".
[/quote] The person that fixes things is a technician and the one that designs it is an engineer. In the U.K. there are Chartered Engineers (CEng), and Incorporated Engineers (IEng).

The IEng was formerly an Engineering Technologist, a term still used in some countries.

Tbe person that mixes live sound would surely go through the arts route at college/uni finally achieving a BA. rather than a BSc. So not an Engineer.

John Anderson former IEng.

[Chienmortbb]

If my previous post seems pedantic, it comes from 10 years plus hard graft, to achieve a coveted professional status.

Sadly I could not even claim technician status on bass.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Chienmortbb

[grandad]

Certainly when I began my working like in 1964 the term Engineer, Technician and Mechanic were applied to those educated to Degree level and those with City and Guilds or National Cert/Dip. Nowadays the distinction has become blurred.

As to Sound Engineering, some of the subjects studied are most definitely in the field of engineering. The maths and physics involved are to a very high level.

[pete.young]

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1476903181' post='3158368']
The person that fixes things is a technician and the one that designs it is an engineer. In the U.K. there are Chartered Engineers (CEng), and Incorporated Engineers (IEng).
[/quote]

I understand this: I have an honours degree in mechanical engineering and was a member of I.Mech.E, before jobs in manufacturing industry disappeared during the Thatcher years and I retrained as a computer scientist. Galling it may be, but that's still not the way it works in practice, 30 years later.


[quote]

Tbe person that mixes live sound would surely go through the arts route at college/uni finally achieving a BA. rather than a BSc. So not an Engineer.

[/quote]

It depends. The pinnacle of sound recording courses in the UK is widely acknowledged to be the Tonmeister course at the University of Surrey. The entry requirements are maths and physics at A level and the syllabus includes a lot of moderately difficult audio engineering maths. People graduate with a B.Mus from the Faculty of Music. Not that you will find too many Tonmeisters mixing the house PA down at the Dog and Duck.

If your point is that one can't be an engineer unless one has a B.Sc. I disagree. Cambridge has a fine engineering department and doesn't award any science degrees.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='pete.young' timestamp='1477044139' post='3159410']
If your point is that one can't be an engineer unless one has a B.Sc. I disagree. Cambridge has a fine engineering department and doesn't award any science degrees.
[/quote]+1. Perhaps it's different in the UK, but in the US no degree is required to be an engineer. Where FOH engineers are concerned BS degrees are as common as a BA in bass playing.

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='pete.young' timestamp='1477044139' post='3159410']
I understand this: I have an honours degree in mechanical engineering and was a member of I.Mech.E, before jobs in manufacturing industry disappeared during the Thatcher years and I retrained as a computer scientist. Galling it may be, but that's still not the way it works in practice, 30 years later.




It depends. The pinnacle of sound recording courses in the UK is widely acknowledged to be the Tonmeister course at the University of Surrey. The entry requirements are maths and physics at A level and the syllabus includes a lot of moderately difficult audio engineering maths. People graduate with a B.Mus from the Faculty of Music. Not that you will find too many Tonmeisters mixing the house PA down at the Dog and Duck.

If your point is that one can't be an engineer unless one has a B.Sc. I disagree. Cambridge has a fine engineering department and doesn't award any science degrees.
[/quote]Oxford award BAs in Science, I suspect Cambridge do the same.

[markstuk]

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1477061351' post='3159623']
Oxford award BAs in Science, I suspect Cambridge do the same.
[/quote]

Cambridge - BA then MSci if you take the Part 3 (fourth year option)