Chord Oddity.

[keeponehandloose]

how would you describe a B flat maj7 chord in relation to Key of C? Playing around with Bowies Space Oddity and it raised the question.

[JapanAxe]

Lost, just like Major Tom.

[TKenrick]

It's a major 7 built on the flattened 7th degree of the major scale soI'd call it 'flat 7 major 7', pretty common non-diatonic chord that crops up frequently in Bowie and other stuff - often is preceded by flat 6 major (Ab major in the key of C) as an alternative turnaround.

Bowie's 'Suffragette City' also has a lot of this, in the key of A but has lots of F major and G major.

The outro of Queen's 'Crazy Little Thing Called Love' has the same thing, but in the key of D.

Edited September 25, 2016 by TKenrick

[Hector]

For improvising you can just play:

C major pentatonic
Bb lydian (i.e. with an E instead of an Eb), which is Fmajor from Bb to Bb.

This is borrowing a chord from closely related key of F major. So it's sort of a IV-I in disguise! You could play F major pentatonic over it,or even C blues scale material.


You see this a lot in jazz as Bb7 to C.
In that case play Bb lydian dominant (i.e. mixolydian with an E instead of Eb). That scale is actually a mode of F melodic minor, so Bb7 to Cmajor is really Fminor is disguise!

Fminor to Cmajor is IV minor to I major, used in lots of songs, including a ton of beatles tunes (e.g. in my life)

[dlloyd]

It's the subtonic chord. bVII.

I suspect he used it because it sounded cool.

[keeponehandloose]

[quote name='Hector' timestamp='1474889173' post='3141226']
For improvising you can just play:

C major pentatonic
Bb lydian (i.e. with an E instead of an Eb), which is Fmajor from Bb to Bb.

This is borrowing a chord from closely related key of F major. So it's sort of a IV-I in disguise! You could play F major pentatonic over it,or even C blues scale material.


You see this a lot in jazz as Bb7 to C.
In that case play Bb lydian dominant (i.e. mixolydian with an E instead of Eb). That scale is actually a mode of F melodic minor, so Bb7 to Cmajor is really Fminor is disguise!

Fminor to Cmajor is IV minor to I major, used in lots of songs, including a ton of beatles tunes (e.g. in my life)
[/quote]
Thats what I wanted to know...where it came from and how it sneaked in there.
Thanks

Edited September 26, 2016 by keeponehandloose

[Hector]

You're welcome!

In fact, Bowie uses IV major, to IV minor to I major as a progression in the chorus of Space Oddity, if you want to know what it sounds like.

In the line "you've really made the grade, the papers want to know whose shirts you wear", "grade" is an F maj, and "papers" is an F min chord. Classic songwriting.

Actually having listened to the song, the interlude bit about "sitting on a tin can" with a Bbmaj7 sounds a bit like he's transitioning to F major a bit more permanently than just a single chord in passing (but the actual chords are slightly ambiguous between the two keys), but the idea of borrowing a chord from a closely related key is still exactly the same!


Two other instances of non-diatonic chords (i.e. not belonging to C major):

He also borrows a chord from another closely related key G major - a D7 chord which you can hear on "put your helmet on". It's a nice technique that gives a bit of movement.

He also nicks an E7 from the relative minor of C major, A minor. Also in the chorus at the line "this is ground control to major tom, you've really made the grade", the major tom bit is an E7 chord.

[The Jaywalker]

[quote name='Hector' timestamp='1474889173' post='3141226']
For improvising you can just play:

C major pentatonic
Bb lydian (i.e. with an E instead of an Eb), which is Fmajor from Bb to Bb.

This is borrowing a chord from closely related key of F major. So it's sort of a IV-I in disguise! You could play F major pentatonic over it,or even C blues scale material.


You see this a lot in jazz as Bb7 to C.
In that case play Bb lydian dominant (i.e. mixolydian with an E instead of Eb). That scale is actually a mode of F melodic minor, so Bb7 to Cmajor is really Fminor is disguise!

Fminor to Cmajor is IV minor to I major, used in lots of songs, including a ton of beatles tunes (e.g. in my life)
[/quote]
In the case of Bb7 to Cmaj (in the key of C); the Bb7 is a Special Function Dominant, i.e. a dominant chord which doesn't resolve using dominant motion. In a major key, these are I7, IV7 and bVII7.

[The Jaywalker]

[quote name='Hector' timestamp='1474922072' post='3141583']
You're welcome!

In fact, Bowie uses IV major, to IV minor to I major as a progression in the chorus of Space Oddity, if you want to know what it sounds like.

In the line "you've really made the grade, the papers want to know whose shirts you wear", "grade" is an F maj, and "papers" is an F min chord. Classic songwriting.

Actually having listened to the song, the interlude bit about "sitting on a tin can" with a Bbmaj7 sounds a bit like he's transitioning to F major a bit more permanently than just a single chord in passing (but the actual chords are slightly ambiguous between the two keys), but the idea of borrowing a chord from a closely related key is still exactly the same!


Two other instances of non-diatonic chords (i.e. not belonging to C major):

He also borrows a chord from another closely related key G major - a D7 chord which you can hear on "put your helmet on". It's a nice technique that gives a bit of movement.

He also nicks an E7 from the relative minor of C major, A minor. Also in the chorus at the line "this is ground control to major tom, you've really made the grade", the major tom bit is an E7 chord.
[/quote]
The E7 moves to Amin and is therefore diatonic to Cmajor. It's harmonic function is V7 of VI - it's a Secondary Dominant chord.

[The Jaywalker]

Worth remembering that Mr Bowie most likely didn't know any of this stuff - in fact, I'll bet my mortgage on it - and just came up with chords he liked which fitted the song.
Always remember; theory exists to explain what we hear. That's why some of it is pretty cumbersome - Modal Interchange for example (the "borrowing" of chords from other keys or, more correctly, parallel modes. What Hector was alluding to).
It can be tricky to apply Harmonic concepts to pop songs at times as the music often doesn't really operate on those terms; especially getting into the realms of 5 chords, i.e. A5 etc.

[Hector]

Your way of looking at it doesn't personally work for me, I certainly wouldn't call E7 diatonic to C major but agree it has a function in a C major context. I find that distinction useful.

Still, if your way doesn't work for me I assume my way doesn't work for others, so I'm glad there's multiple takes on it in this thread. There's room for different ways of thinking about music theory for sure!

[The Jaywalker]

[quote name='Hector' timestamp='1474934754' post='3141689']
Your way of looking at it doesn't personally work for me, I certainly wouldn't call E7 diatonic to C major but agree it has a function in a C major context. I find that distinction useful.

Still, if your way doesn't work for me I assume my way doesn't work for others, so I'm glad there's multiple takes on it in this thread. There's room for different ways of thinking about music theory for sure!
[/quote]
Sometimes there is room: sometimes Harmony is pretty well-established. Secondary Dominants are diatonic, i.e. "of the key". They don't modulate and only add one note to the key (in the case of the E7, a G#) and their upper structures are therefore diatonic (so this E7 would extend to E7b9b13). It's not my way of thinking about - it's the way Parker, Ellington, Coltrane, Bach and Mozart looked at it and it's what's taught anywhere Harmony is studied.
However, taking Dominant Motion further, Extended Dominants (think the bridge to Jordu) are non-diatonic and their upper structures are much more varied.

But then, I'm studying George Russell at the moment; which puts a lot of this stuff out of the window.... ;-)

Edited September 27, 2016 by The Jaywalker

[The Jaywalker]

Key of C major
G7 ---> Cmaj V7 ---> Imaj (Primary Dominant)

Secondary Dominants
A7 (Eb7) ---> Dm7 V7/II (bV7/II) - mix. b13
B7 (F7) ---> Em7 V7/III (bV7/III) - mix.b9b13
C7 (Gb7) ---> Fmaj V7/IV (bV7/IV) - mix.
D7 (Ab7) ---> G7 V7/V (bV7/V) - mix.
E7 (Bb7) ---> Am7 V7/VI (bV7/VI) - mix.b9b13
(Most consonant diatonic scale choices are to the right; with Lydian Dominant for the tritone subs)
As you can see, there's quite a variety of Dominant chords which are diatonic "of the key" in Functional Harmony.
Also, if you look at the scale choices, there's Harmonic and Melodic minor choices relating to the chord the Secondary Dominant resolves to. E.g., V7/III using m5 of E Harmonic Minor - explains the Harmonic minor sounds on a Dominant chord which pop up frequently in stuff from Bach to Dixieland.
Hope this clears things up a wee bit!

[Hector]

[quote name='The Jaywalker' timestamp='1474959074' post='3141726']
Hope this clears things up a wee bit!
[/quote]

It's very kind of you to post all this, and I'm sure it's of help to other people reading this thread, but it's not new information to me. I already know and use this stuff, and conceive of it differently to you.

I think of the non-diatonic notes of secondary dominants (chords which do indeed have diatonic functions), as these act as valuable signposts in a progression. In this manner I am able to remain ostensibly in a key whilst only thinking of what few notes I should change to capture the sound of the secondary dominant.

I see secondary dominants as very temporarily acting to tonicise something other than the I chord, and if I'm thinking more modally than diatonically, will draw my scale choices accordingly (e.g. mode V of harmonic or melodic minors).

I don't claim to have much formal schooling with theory - my thinking is developed for me and for maximum utility when I'm playing over changes. It's based on reducing the amount of stuff I need to think about while playing, which is the sounds themselves, so a shortcut to good sounds is helpful for me. I aim to keep it simple and useful, and happily share my take with other people. I'm very glad you're also contributing your take, which is presumably more formal. The notes matter most, rather than the theory of it, and we arrive at similar (if not the same choices).

To contribute something other than debate, I found this resource quite useful: http://2014.chrisfitzgeraldmusic.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/COHC-Jazz.pdf

[The Jaywalker]

Yeah, you've pretty much said the same thing, esp with regard to Harmony/chord scales etc. I really dig how there's different ways to arrive at the same info, using a Harmonic or melodic route with these chords.
The "temporary tonicisation" is the way some Classical theory approaches it; largely I think because of their obsession with formal cadences, 4 part SATB harmony and the fact that Classical theory is "on the page" (just look at the pig's ear they make if naming intervals!) - it's a dominant chord, so on paper it must be resolving to a tonic to some extent. Later periods, and obviously in Jazz, we tend to be more comfortable with them being part of the key; as they clearly don't "sound" like a modulation in the way we deal with Harmony.
Gary Peacock has some nice stuff about this in his video; where he talks about a C7 having a particular relationship within different keys and how to approach it.
It's why the Dixie "ear" player will know he's in C, so only add a G# to his lines on an E7 - and sound way more coherent than the mixolydian nightmare dude who's been on an Aebersold course! ;-)

[Hector]

Yeah I love chatting theory! Nice to hear your take on it

Btw if George isn't keeping you too busy, I thought this guy's PHD thesis was really interesting: http://www.scottcookmusic.com/theory/ (link on this page to download a pdf)

He talks about a similar approach to the method of altering as few notes as possible to stay within a key when faced with non diatonic chords, but applied to more modern jazz progressions. Lots of Kenny Wheeler goodness within!

[The Jaywalker]

Sounds good! That's definitely getting checked out ;-)
Even my dog loves Kenny Wheeler. Which is true - tail wags, chilled out....

[keeponehandloose]

I agree Bowie probably didnt know any of the theory and just liked the changes- pun intended. It was the major7 choice (or Tom), instead of a dom7 which got me thinking.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='keeponehandloose' timestamp='1474989003' post='3142089']
I agree Bowie probably didnt know any of the theory and just liked the changes- pun intended. It was the major7 choice (or Tom), instead of a dom7 which got me thinking.
[/quote]

Basically there are a few borrowed chords that commonly crop up in pop music that probably have little to do with theoretical knowledge of the writer. bVII is one... others include bIII and bVI.