Westone AM Pro Series IEM * anyone tried them?

[largo]

After a few gigs using my Shure SE215 headphones as IEM, I'm looking for a bit of an upgrade. I like the IEM concept but have discovered a couple of things. The SE215 being a single driver doesn't give the greatest bass response & I feel pretty isolated when wearing both IEM so I'm forever taking one out between songs etc.

Not sure I can justify £800ish on custom moulds at the moment, so a bit of Google'ing through up the Westone AM Pro series at [url="https://www.westone.com/store/music/index.php/universal-series/am-pro-series.html/"]https://www.westone.com/store/music/index.php/universal-series/am-pro-series.html/[/url]

Fairly new, but has anyone used them? Dual or triple driver is available, so that's the bass response (hopefully) covered and a -12db ambient port so you can still hear the onstage noise albeit reduced. Around £350 so expensive but worth it if it ticks all the boxes.

Anybody?

[tonyf]

If you're looking for a real good upgrade on the SE215, the Ultimate Ears UE900s are fantastic apparently. Our keyboard player has gone that route and absolutely loves his.

[url="http://pro.ultimateears.com/products/custom-monitors/for-stage/ue-900s"]http://pro.ultimateears.com/products/custom-monitors/for-stage/ue-900s[/url]

If you're still looking at custom moulds, the Custom IEM Company offer a re-shell service for the UE900s which will give you a great upgrade.

[url="http://www.custom-inearmonitors.co.uk/reshells-remoulds/reshelling-remoulding-service-for-in-ear-monitors.html"]http://www.custom-inearmonitors.co.uk/reshells-remoulds/reshelling-remoulding-service-for-in-ear-monitors.html[/url]

[EBS_freak]

Ha - I've just written a private message to pretty much to this same effect.

This site is legit (and where tonyf keys player got his from too! err... I may have a pair too - inears freak) [url="http://www.eglobalcentral.co.uk/logitech-ultimate-ears-ue900s-headphone-en.html"]http://www.eglobalce...adphone-en.html[/url] - currently £169 compared to the £279.99 at [url="http://www.custom-inearmonitors.co.uk/iems/ultimate-ears-ue-900s-quad-driver-in-ear-monitors.html"]http://www.custom-in...r-monitors.html[/url]

Not bad for a UE product - and as tony says, a reshell will come in at around £200.

Less than £400 (subject to impression taking costs), is not to be sniffed at for a set of custom quads. You'd be looking closer to £700+ ordinarily (as it looks like you've discovered!)

For a bass player, I would always recommend a minimum of a quad driver with dual lows... to give you the headroom you'll be craving in the lows and the lower mids.

If you are feeling "isolated" there are some ways around this... have a look through the big inears thread - [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/205633-in-ear-monitors-help-needed/"]http://basschat.co.u...rs-help-needed/[/url] - or ask a question in there so we can keep all the relevant information together. In short, you should not be taking your inears out. Think of the only thing that you can hear is what your desk sends you - so if you want to hear the audience, mic them up - but don't send them through the front of house mix!)

Edited September 28, 2016 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

PS - absolutely NO AMBIENT PORTS. You'll lose all your bass. A good bass response is reliant on a good seal. If you break that seal for an ambient port, say goodbye to your bass. (See above about micing up stuff you want to hear - e.g. that may even be a mic on stage so you can hear bandmates talking between themselves.

[largo]

I read a lot of the IEM thread and completely appreciate the no-no of removing one ear plug. Funnily enough, I noticed Sting playing on the Jools Holland show a couple of weeks ago and he was only wearing one IEM! Would one IEM & an earplug to reduce stage volume be an option. Maybe a daft question, but maybe not too daft! I have custom moulded ACS earplugs I've worn for years.

I also appreciate the absolutely no ambient ports comment too, however the SLED technology doesn't just seem to be an open port rather reducing all frequencies by the same amount like good earplugs. From what I can gather, the 64Audio & JH IEM's both have an ambient port option that does similar. Should I steer clear of these too, as a bass player?

Personally, I'm not sure it's going to be practical to setup another one or two ambient mics just so I can hear a bit of what's going on around me. I know this is the ideal. We'd definitely do that if they whole band went IEM, but it's not going to happen (at least in the short term) with just me being IEM, so I have to find myself a solution.

Thanks for the suggestions so far.

BTW, I can get the AM Pro re-shelled as well if I decide to go custom moulded at some point in the future, although only go to a triple driver!

[EBS_freak]

I would wager that the onstage sound for the Sting performance was low and to be fair, it's not a prolonged performance time, so risk is greatly reduced. It's prolonged usage and the temptation to turn the volume up on the IEM which is left in your ear which gives you your problems. One ear plug would definitely be a safer option as it would lessen the volume difference between the two ears that causes the user to turn up in the first place.

Despite what the marketing says, anything that reduces isolation and allows the outside in, is going to lead to a loss of bass... It's true that 64 Audio and JH Audio both have an ambient port option - but you'll see very few artists with them. The only reason that they are there, is because people seem to insist that they need them. To be fair though, if you are a singer and want to feel more ambience and don't care about losing low end, this may be a desirable option. It easy to demonstrate why ambient ports are a bad idea - take any earphone that seals against your ear... listen to some music... and pull it out slightly - it will become very apparent which frequencies rapidly vanish. If you must have ambient - do it with mics... or use something like the ACS Live system. If you use the latter - which is really good, you'll get good results... however, for me, their inears don't have enough headroom in the bass and they aren't interested in doing a dual low driver. This is, however, all very expensive. Maybe you should try something like a cheap condenser on a microphone and just stick it somewhere at the side of the stage. If you are in mono, it won't sound too weird but may give you seem of that ambient sound you are looking for. Condenser mics can be had really cheap - I haven't looked but I bet you could get one for less than twenty quid.

Pretty much anything can be reshelled as long as it is balanced armature based. Personally, I wouldn't want to be investing in a mould for a triple though! (But thats just me!)

[largo]

So, this SLED technology is just snake oil? Claims none of the low-end loss that normal ambient ports would have... [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7ieOF7OjKw"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7ieOF7OjKw[/url]

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1475096426' post='3143099']
So, this SLED technology is just snake oil? Claims none of the low-end loss that normal ambient ports would have... [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7ieOF7OjKw"]https://www.youtube....h?v=P7ieOF7OjKw[/url]
[/quote]

Without actually trying it, I can't say whether it's snake oil or not. I get the concept and it would seem to fly. Only one thing, my ACS Live system enables fine tuning of the ambient feed via the pack - I do change that quite a lot, especially if the drummer is hitting hard... On softer songs, I'll find myself letting in more ambient sound. The SLED solution works on a fixed filter - so I don't know if I would find it frustrating that I'm stuck with a fixed filter.

Interesting nonetheless. But the lack of dual lows would take it out the equation for me anyway.

Edited September 28, 2016 by EBS_freak

[Dynamic]

Thought I'd add a comment.

Firstly I work for Dynamic Ear Company, we supply the filters used in the JH audio and Westone ambient earphone. We also work with ACS for musicians passive hearing protection technology. Don't worry I'm not selling anything!!

The filters used in ambient monitors are linear, i.e flat, these are used by musicians in custom moulds and universal product, for ambient monitors we recommend a filter between 10 and 20 dB SNR, preference is around 15 dB. The filters have unique damping qualities so the loss is (almost) the same across all f, however you are correct low f losses are higher due too the sound venting. In order to minimise the low f losses we'll work with the customer to design a canal providing a form of 'crossover', this is the what SLED achieves. In use you hear the ambient sound come in as the monitor sound drops.

I have Westone single, dual and triple driver ambient monitors, if anyone is in the Cambridge area and would like to try them you'd be welcome (we do not sell Westone or JH products). We're always interested in user feedback.

Steve

www.dynamic-ear.com
www.crescendo-hearingprotection.com

[EBS_freak]

Hello!

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Dynamic' timestamp='1476291172' post='3153118']In order to minimise the low f losses we'll work with the customer to design a canal providing a form of 'crossover', this is the what SLED achieves. In use you hear the ambient sound come in as the monitor sound drops.
[/quote]

I've reread this comment and I'm not sure my understanding is correct so hopefully you can clarify...

Am I right in thinking that the bass response that is lost from the monitor feed is replaced by what you are hearing from the ambient side...? What happens if you are running a silent stage, say where I have no bass amp - there is no ambient bass to make up for the loss that you would get from the piped in mix....?

[Dynamic]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1476349261' post='3153457']
Am I right in thinking that the bass response that is lost from the monitor feed is replaced by what you are hearing from the ambient side...? What happens if you are running a silent stage, say where I have no bass amp - there is no ambient bass to make up for the loss that you would get from the piped in mix....?
[/quote]

Not just the bass but the whole ambient sound replaces the monitor sound once it drops for example below 20 dB. The bass losses are controlled by the 'SLED' or canal. Most designs use a secondary sound canal to the ear from the filter rather than a ported speaker with a filter. This secondary canal is used to reduce the low f loss. The other method is to have more bass in the monitor mix, not great though.
The ambient is giving you the sound from the whole venue, not just the stage. Same with the ACS Live system but that uses the microphones for the ambient which is mixed with the monitor through the Live belt pack. That level of control isn't possible with passive filters. If you want to try the Live system contact Andy at ACS UK or Adam ACS USA, they have a universal fit Live system for demo's.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Dynamic' timestamp='1476365453' post='3153674']
Not just the bass but the whole ambient sound replaces the monitor sound once it drops for example below 20 dB. The bass losses are controlled by the 'SLED' or canal. Most designs use a secondary sound canal to the ear from the filter rather than a ported speaker with a filter. This secondary canal is used to reduce the low f loss. The other method is to have more bass in the monitor mix, not great though.
The ambient is giving you the sound from the whole venue, not just the stage. Same with the ACS Live system but that uses the microphones for the ambient which is mixed with the monitor through the Live belt pack. That level of control isn't possible with passive filters. If you want to try the Live system contact Andy at ACS UK or Adam ACS USA, they have a universal fit Live system for demo's.
[/quote]

OK - I think I get where you are coming from. I would be interested in how they work for bassists and drummers - the loss of bass frequencies are crucial. For a vocalist that doesn't overly care about bass - then yeah, I could see that working quite well.

I've got the ACS Live system - and I think it's very good but let by two factors - the mics don't cut it in environments with very high SPLs. My friend is the lead vocalist in a Deep Purple tribute band and those tiny mics just can't cope with onstage volume... granted, I would say that the backline needs to be turned down- but they are all old school and deaf and it's not really going to happen. Even with the pad engaged on the pad, they just don't cope. Secondly, the headroom in the bass out the ACS isn't great for bass players. In the right environment though, they are superb. I'd imagine the guys in the west end using them will be loving them.

[largo]

I think it's important to think about the supply & demand aspect too. There will always be a few people willing (& able) to spend upwards of a £1000 on IEM but, similar to backline the majority of us are just looking for the best solution on a budget. My guess £200-£300 price range & that's where the Westone AM range works really well.

Personally I'm not looking to run with no backline, just less onstage volume & being able to hear everything a bit clearer while protecting my hearing.

[EBS_freak]

Absolutely agreed! I'm the biggest IEM fan - and so keen to hear and understand all the tech at all price points. These Westones have got my attention as they are a bit different to everything else on the market. Having used the filter ear plugs in anger and having tried ambient ported IEMs, I am intrigued to if Westone have actually made some successful inroads in addressing the problems inherently present with that kind of tech.

[Dynamic]

Offer is still open if you want to try a pair of the Westone AM monitors.

Personally I use custom protectors, generally with 15 or 20 dB filters. Problem for me is much like the DP tribute band, our bass player has 1200w rms, an ex punk drummer and 2 guitarists running at 11, so I often have the problem of not being able to hear myself. Ive tried singing with UE18 monitors but don't like being fully occluded.

Both the drummer and bassist wear our 25 dB universal fit hearing protectors and swear by them. Drop me a PM with a band link and I'll send you both a pair to test.

[EBS_freak]

Sounds like an interesting offer.

How does the 3 aside compare to the 6 aside of the UE18s? I'm just wondering if there is going to be enough headroom in the bass - that has always been the let down of triples (or less) for me in the past.

Do you know what BAs are in there? Knowles or Sonion? Or a combination? Specially manufactured drivers to Westone spec? (Or a secret!?)

Edited October 14, 2016 by EBS_freak

[Dynamic]

3 v 6 - 6 is better. UE18 is a great monitor, sells really well in the audiophile market. I've listened to 15 and 18 drivers per side, complete waste of money.
I do know who manufactures the Westone monitor BARs, they are a reputable company...

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Dynamic' timestamp='1476460512' post='3154567']
3 v 6 - 6 is better. UE18 is a great monitor, sells really well in the audiophile market. I've listened to 15 and 18 drivers per side, complete waste of money.
I do know who manufactures the Westone monitor BARs, they are a reputable company...
[/quote]

Ha - I don't know about complete waste of money - but certainly there are different sound signatures... and only you can decide whether that sound signature is worth the money. But I agree, there's lots of BS around with driver count. If you are cramming in drivers just to up the count, you are going to be onto a loser... unless you can really nail the crossovers and phasing issues.