Hohner acoustic/electric strings too low, and few other issues

[lurkingbass]

Hi all!

Total newbie here, just started playing.
Bought very nice 2nd hand Hohner acoustic/electric from the 90s. It has few issues and I hope i can get good advice here.

It came with old strings and one of them broke when I over-tensioned it, never mind, got new ones and replaced.
I got D'Addario black nylon tapewound strings and they are exactly what I wanted (deep mellow sound, no squeaking).
But, first two wouldn't fit all the way through bridge so I had to make holes just a little bit wider. 3rd and 4th string went through so I wasn't tampering with those.
I guess this was because this bass was designed for strings 45-100 and I mounted 50-105.

So [color=#ff0000][u][b]1st question[/b][/u][/color]: Is this ok? Did I make anything worse by doing this? I think nothing has changed, but still would like to read other opinions.

Anyway, lets go on to the real issue. Strings height. They are too low.
I inspected why is this and I found out two causes.

1st cause is saddle, it is obviously sanded too much. Distance between 15th fret and E string is barely over 3 mm.
I googled and found out it shouldn't be below 4 mm. I also pressed E string against 1st and last fret and it seems there is no gap at all above other frets.
When I play it slow and smooth it is fine, but as soon as I start to play it harder strings are hitting other frets, buzz is also there, it is just not good.
Also last (G) string is barely sitting on saddle, if at all, and I think it has too high action. When I mounted those new strings, this one was so loud, it sounded as church bell. I managed to fix it by straightening the string itself, but I think that action is still too high in comparison to other strings.
Playing in lower than standard tuning is impossible, strings are hitting frets all the time. [color=#ff0000][b][u]Photos here[/u][/b][/color]: http://imgur.com/a/BUcIC (click on photo to zoom in)

And 2nd cause, neck is barely, just barely back-bowed. [color=#ff0000][u][b]Photos here[/b][/u][/color]: http://imgur.com/a/5jKpc (click on photo to zoom in)

So, my thoughts about this issue. I think saddle is main issue, but I am not so sure about replacing it. There are few reasons for this.
Obviously, first one is I don't have experience with this, but main reason is that replacement saddles look way too high to me. (when I look at them on other, new acoustic basses, so much higher than on this one)
I am 100% sure that I would need to sand bottom of new saddle at least few times before I get it right, and strings on this bass cannot be removed from bridge, only from headstock, so that looks like it would be a huge pain in the ass. Also there is a wire inside, under the bridge, I guess it is piezo pickup and I also don't want to tamper with that. (actually I didn't test it plugged in, but still..)

So I was thinking to straighten neck, a little bit, but I am not so sure about this either. It is relatively old bass, from 90s.
First, I am not sure if that would help at all, it is almost 100% straight, actually on photos looks much more bended than it is.
Then, I am not sure if it is safe to do that. I am newbie, idk if humidity is important, but I was thinking if I am going to do it, maybe it is better to wait for days with higer humidity, so that wood could adjust easier? Then again, if this would help, I guess action would still going to be high on G string?

[color=#ff0000][u][b]Please, your thoughts and advices regarding this! What is my best move here?[/b][/u][/color]

Also few things that I am less concerned about, but still wanted to ask.
Cracks alongside neck, on edge. Important or not? [color=#ff0000][u][b]Photos here[/b][/u][/color]: http://imgur.com/a/ErsfO (click on photo to zoom in)

Fretboard corner slightly detached from body, does this need fixing? Actually, it looks like top plate is distort a little bit, under fretboard corner. [color=#ff0000][u][b]Photos here[/b][/u][/color]: http://imgur.com/a/WkDlT (click on photo to zoom in)


I apologize for long post, I am beginner and I am still learning basics. Hope I explained everything good.
I really like this bass and I would like to fix those issues if possible.
[color=#ff0000][u][b]Thanks for reading and help![/b][/u][/color]

Cheers!

[cheddatom]

I would loosen the truss rod and see what happens, but then I do have a somewhat cavalier approach

[Marc S]

Hi there lurkingbass,

From some of those pics, it does look like there is a bow in the neck. This is not the end of the world, as long as your bass has a truss-rod. Truss road adjustment is a fairly routine operation - but don't overdo it - take this maybe just one quarter of a turn at a time, then leave it settle a while...
Normally, there is a slight bow, in the opposite direction - i.e. concave bow of the fretboard / fingerboard. OF course, this all depends on the design of the bass, gauge of strings and preference of the player etc etc

You don't mention where you live. Perhaps you could ask if there's a friendly BC'er nearby who would have a quick look at your bass for you? I'm in Cardiff, and if a newbie wanted an opinion, I know I'd be more than happy to spare a little while & take a look for someone
Just ask - most BC'ers are very fine & decent folk, honest

Good luck

[lurkingbass]

Hi @cheddatom and @Marc S ; thank you for suggestions.

I was also thinking about loosening the truss rod and I just did it. I am not sure if it will make a difference but I will see in a few hours.
It wasn't easy at all, it was stuck completely. But since seller claimed that bass wasn't used at all in last 10 years or so, I concluded that it is just stuck, nothing less or more.
So I decided to use all my strength in hand, while controlling bottom of the key with my thumb, and after few minutes of (literally) hard struggle, it finally started to turn.
Afterwards was relatively easy to turn how much I wanted. I turned it somewhere between 1/8 and 1/4 of a turn, I am not sure because I stripped truss rod nut a little bit until I made it going.

I am not from UK and in my place all BC'ers that I know of, are charging everything quite expensive, and are not that friendly. At least those easier things such as replacing strings, adjusting truss rod, tuning etc. I think that I need to know how to do by myself.
Of course there is always risk of damaging it, but I always think twice before doing something, I read a lot online and ask for opinions.
Hopefully I will manage to make this bass sound nice, as it should.

Thanks!

[cheddatom]

let us know how you get on

[Twincam]

Sounds just like a normal setup issue going from one string type to a low tension type. Tapewounds are low tension under the wrapping the normal string is normally a very small gauge.
So yes basically it needed a truss rod adjustmemt. Loosening the rod turning counterclockwise looking at the adjustmemt nut.
If you don't want to take it to a Luther or guitar tech. Then you could do the follow easy enough.
If you have stripped the nut then you could always change the strings to some normal gauge rounds or even flat wounds to get the correct relief of the neck.
And btw truss rod adjustments are for the most part instant they may move slightly after a few hours but you should notice changes right away.
If you don't have a set of feeler gauges then a standard card/paper business card (not plastic bank card) is normally around .013 which is a good place to start. Fret at the first fret and use your elbow to fret at the last fret then try sliding the business card under the 7th fret it should just brush the top of the 7th fret and under the string.

And as for the saddle if you take it gently out you can always make a thin veneer out of a solid material to raise it slightly. Using cut paper strips one at a time to raise the saddle you can see how thick the veneer should be.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Twincam

[lurkingbass]

Hi Twincam.
Thanks for explanation and suggestions, now I have better understanding about situation here. I didn't strip truss rod nut that much, so I managed to adjust it yesterday.
So, I played a little bit last night, and it is sounds a little bit better now. Not much, but it is improved. Neck is more straight now, but still not 100%.
Strings are not hitting other frets that often now and there is less buzz. All of this just a little bit, not much.

I think that truss rod nut will need another 1/8 turn, but right now I am going to leave it like this. When I adjusted this yesterday, it was raining, warm, and humidity was around 60%
But today, first time after summer, we got this cold, dry winds from north, which normally lasts for a few days. The problem with this weather, is extremely low humidity.
And according to weather report today is between 11-14% only!

So I made homemade humidifier, similar to this one: http://www.instructables.com/id/Homemade-Guitar-Humidifier/
I placed it in case with guitar, not under headstock, but in free space between guitar cutout and case. Like that it makes more sense to me, because I am not sure how much air is able to spread from under the headstock to the body.

I am now concerned about this, because since I bought this bass, it was late summer here and humidity was fine. This 11% is really extreme.

Regarding setup, I was thinking to leave it like this before easing truss rod another 1/8 of a turn.
I am not sure what would be best, how many days to wait before doing this. This extremely low humidity will last a few days, after that it should get back to fine numbers 40-55%

This last suggestion for raising a saddle sounds interesting, and if I don't manage to achieve good setup adjusting the truss rod, I will think about that.
Thanks!

[Twincam]

It sounds like you do indeed want more relief (bow) in the neck and yes look at raising the saddle piece if needed too.
The tapewounds do move more when plucked so in general they need a slightly higher setup than usual as well as a more gentle touch.

[lurkingbass]

So, after long time playing around with tuning, I decided that this saddle is no good and that I need a new one.
It is too low, and also in standard bass setup, 4th string is barely touching it, if at all. As soon as I go in lower tuning, there is a gap between, and it is impossible to use that string without incredible loud buzz, like church bells.
I want to be able to play in lower tuning, much lower tuning. Kyuss Space Cadet for example, which has 4th string in C.

I was reading about saddles, and right now I only know that I want to buy bone saddle. I measured width, and it seems 74 mm which seems to be standard.
But most of saddles that I managed to found are labeled as "acoustic guitar" saddles, so I am not sure do I need specifically acoustic bass saddle or is it same thing if it doesn't have cuts on top of it for each string?

Actually, which kind of finish on top edge would be best for this bass and tapewound strings? I see all different kinds, I am not sure which one would be appropriate and why.
Thanks!

[Norris]

You didn't fancy Twincam's idea of veneer packing under the existing bridge? I thought it was a great idea

[lurkingbass]

Yes I did. But after more looking at this saddle it seems that it was sanded down from top, and probably sanded too much on this side where 4th string should be leaning on.
1st string is only 3 mm above 15th fret. I want to achieve around 4 mm, maybe a tad less. If I am not mistaken, that means I need to lift saddle for around 2 mm.

So I face more than one problem then. 1st, achieving completely straight veneer, both top and bottom. 2nd, final saddle would be actually 2 parts, because 2 mm veneer is not so small to disregard it. 3rd, when saddle lifted 2 mm, strings are probably going to bend it sideways. All this combined, I think vibrations from strings would be weaker and not evenly distributed to the top plate and pickup, and we all know what that means.

That is why I think it would be better to upgrade to new, bone saddle, and to sand bottom carefully if needed.
But I don't know which one to look for. I assume compensated would be better, but there are many kind of compensated. I don't know if it would work after sanding bottom, strings would lean on different angle on top of it then..

Edited October 10, 2016 by lurkingbass

[lurkingbass]

So, any advice at all? Majority of saddles are advertised as an acoustic guitar ones. So lets say I am looking at non compensated saddle, and dimensions are right. Is that same thing, same as an acoustic bass saddle?

I found lot of them on ebay, but there are lot of fakes too. (plastic)

I also found nubone saddles in Warwick store but they are too expensive, around 50 euro.
I want to spend up to 20GBP/22EURO max, and it needs to be real bone.

[Twincam]

Why does it need to be bone? Plastic does a good job. And you won't notice a difference.

[lurkingbass]

Because I've seen photos and read about plastic saddles, after a while lots of them bent under string loads, also strings got burn/cut in them. Sound vise, from what I've read, bone can't be inferior to plastic.

What I am actually asking is: if there is guitar saddle with exact width, length and height, that I need, is arc on top going to be good for bass too? Of course, we are talking about non compensated saddles.
Is it same thing? If not, can someone please explain where exactly is arc difference between guitar/bass saddle assuming all other dimensions are same?

[Twincam]

[quote name='lurkingbass' timestamp='1476506522' post='3154845']
Because I've seen photos and read about plastic saddles, after a while lots of them bent under string loads, also strings got burn/cut in them. Sound vise, from what I've read, bone can't be inferior to plastic.

What I am actually asking is: if there is guitar saddle with exact width, length and height, that I need, is arc on top going to be good for bass too? Of course, we are talking about non compensated saddles.
Is it same thing? If not, can someone please explain where exactly is arc difference between guitar/bass saddle assuming all other dimensions are same?
[/quote]

Ok I doubt anyone can tell the sound difference between a bone saddle or a decent plastic or faux bone material one. I've never encounted a plastic saddle bend under a string load.

There might be a guitar saddle that will fit with some adjustmemt but unlikely you will find one the exact correct dimensions. But its not impossible.

The arc as you call it is actually the radius. Different fingerborads have different radius (ark of the fingerboard). You need to find out the radius of your finger board and get a suitably radiused saddle.

You can buy the saddle material and shape one yourself if need be.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Twincam

[lurkingbass]

I understand, but i want to avoid this: [b]http://imgur.com/a/0Lehm[/b] that is actually my friends bass, I asked him to move strings to the side and took those photos; it is both heavily bent and cut under strings. It sounds horrible too. I understand that there are far better than plastic, faux bone, nu bone and similar saddles available, but I managed to find cheap bone material for 2 saddles.
It should be legit, guy has 100% positive feedback. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Luthier-bone-saddle-blanks-for-guitar-banjo-mandolin-etc-/182295564527?hash=item2a71a990ef:g:1f0AAOSwEppUT7To
I will probably buy it and shape it, thanks for a suggestion.

Do you know where on fingerboard is best to copy radius for saddle? (it is long scale, 34'') I will also send email to Hohner, maybe they could help me with this.
Thanks!

[Norris]

Measure at the bridge end. I'd also measure near the first fret to see if it's a compound radius - it would be a tigher radius at the nut if so. Chances are your existing bridge is the correct radius though