Theory. Yes please or a bit of a yawn?

[mikel]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1475848750' post='3149223']
It's music, no matter what you call it, or how you dress it up, and there are rules. You can learn or study them, or discover them accidentally, but they're there.

[b]I remember seeing a similar thread a while ago. Someone posted that they didn't know what they were playing, and used to just play all the notes randomly until they found something that would fit over a chord, then they'd do the same over the next chord. So trial and error. Wouldn't it be easier and quicker to know what you could play over a chord, and how what you choose to play would sound like ?[/b]
[/quote]

Well, surely they did learn what fits, and in real time. They learned the notes on the neck at the same time, and while learning a song. Also, lots of new stuff can come from a happy accident. As for playing a minor blues scale run instead of a major? perhaps thats exactly what the player intended, it fits but its not what the music theorist would have played.

[ambient]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1475851752' post='3149254']


Well, surely they did learn what fits, and in real time. They learned the notes on the neck at the same time, and while learning a song. Also, lots of new stuff can come from a happy accident. As for playing a minor blues scale run instead of a major? perhaps thats exactly what the player intended, it fits but its not what the music theorist would have played.
[/quote]

Well no, they didn't learn, that's my point. Whenever their band started a new song, it'd be trial and error writing a bass line.

Minor over a major isn't anything to do with a theorist.

[bassjim]

[quote name='Barking Spiders' timestamp='1475851544' post='3149251']
I only play stuff I like and so in terms of progression I'm limited by this and get a bit frustrated. I know I've a chance of improving if I listened to and studied jazz/fusion players like Wootten, Bailey, Berlin, Patitucci etc - which would involve more advanced theory - but just don't like this type of music. If I learnt their styles of chops and tried to fit them in with what I like to play it'd sound well out of place.
[/quote] theory works for all types of music not just dusty end fiddling about banjo stuff. You don't have to become a born again musoian.

[chris_b]

In music is good to know stuff.

It's even better to know a lot of stuff.

[bassjim]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1475851752' post='3149254']
Well, surely they did learn what fits, and in real time. They learned the notes on the neck at the same time, and while learning a song. Also, lots of new stuff can come from a happy accident. As for playing a minor blues scale run instead of a major? perhaps thats exactly what the player intended, it fits but its not what the music theorist would have played.
[/quote] yes could be happy accident but also could be...."hmmm..I'm just gonna try a minor over that major to see how it sounds. Yeah that's interesting. Dont hear that very often. Now I'm gonna alter the 5th ect ect"

Edited October 7, 2016 by bassjim

[bubinga5]

Bottom line is musical theory is about communication. Good musicians should be able to communicate within the language of music to each other. I don't want to play with a guitarst who doesn't know what chords he's playing, thus I can't play the best bass line to make the music as good as it should be. I think alot of people want to take the easy route, and just get by.Learning theory is hard work. But it's very rewarding. Reading music I don't think is necessary. Music is about having fun, but as my Dad says, nothing really great came from anything that was easy.

Edited October 7, 2016 by bubinga5

[bassjim]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1475854625' post='3149288']
Bottom line is musical theory is about communication. Good musicians should be able to communicate within the language of music to each other. I don't want to play with a guitarst who doesn't know what chords he's playing, thus I can't play the best bass line to make the music as good as it should be. I think alot of people want to take the easy route, and just get by.Learning theory is hard work. But it's very rewarding. Reading music I don't think is necessary. Music is about having fun, but as my Dad says, nothing really great came from anything that was easy.
[/quote]what he said

[ras52]

[quote name='bassjim' timestamp='1475855193' post='3149293']
what he said
[/quote]

Yep, theory is largely about a common language, so if you're ever going to make music with anyone else - or even make notes (in whatever form) for future reference, it'll help!

[Coilte]

[quote name='Barking Spiders' timestamp='1475851544' post='3149251']
I only play stuff I like and so in terms of progression I'm limited by this and get a bit frustrated. I know I've a chance of improving if I listened to and studied jazz/fusion players like Wootten, Bailey, Berlin, Patitucci etc - which would involve more advanced theory - but just don't like this type of music. If I learnt their styles of chops and tried to fit them in with what I like to play it'd sound well out of place.
[/quote]

You don't have to "study" jazz or fusion players...merely learn some basic theory. It is the building blocks of music. What you "build" with those blocks is entirely up to you.

[bubinga5]

Music or playing doesn't have to be about what I just banged on about. Music is about having fun. No doubt and that's why we play.regardless of where we are musically.

Edited October 7, 2016 by bubinga5

[louisthebass]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1475840471' post='3149104']
In my opinion I think the average person just really needs to know the notes on the fretboard, and basic chord theory, major, minor, dominant etc. So they know what notes they can play over a given chord.
[/quote]

This - had a similar discussion with the guy running the rehearsal room last night. If you're not planning to pursue the Jazz route, this is all you really need in the vast majority of playing situations if you're the type of muso who wants to learn theory.

[scalpy]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1475859173' post='3149340']
Music or playing doesn't have to be about what I just banged on about. Music is about having fun. No doubt and that's why we play.regardless of where we are musically.
[/quote]

Love having fun making music, hate wasting time in rehearsals waiting for band mates trying to figure out what chord is being used, or for something to be transposed, or what the count in for All Along The Watchtower is etc. Theory gets you there that little bit faster. It's not just about jazz obviously, but also helps your aural and ensemble skills. To be perfectly frank, I'm quite happy others don't learn it as knowing a bit of theory and being able to read gets me loads of work for someone who doesn't have the greatest chops.

[bubinga5]

[quote name='louisthebass' timestamp='1475859766' post='3149346']


This - had a similar discussion with the guy running the rehearsal room last night. If you're not planning to pursue the Jazz route, this is all you really need in the vast majority of playing situations if you're the type of muso who wants to learn theory.
[/quote]What has Jazz got to do with it. There is complex music everywhere.

[bubinga5]

Why not know the mechanics behind what your doing. ?

[Trueno]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1475863650' post='3149393']
What has Jazz got to do with it. There is complex music everywhere.
[/quote]

Absolutely.

[JTUK]

As always it depends what gigs you want to do. Essentially, you need the tools to do that 'job' and it depends who or how that job is defined.
If you have both and are a balanced player you wont lose gigs because you have both, but you might if you only have one of them.

If you are in fast and quick dep situations, you'll need to know what you are doing ..sometimes on the fly and knowing what lines will work against a chord chart is pretty key, IMO...
You may not have time to work it out as the song has already been counted in...

[fretmeister]

Yes please.

My understanding of what I'm playing improved massively with a bit of theory.

Lovely to be able to sight read a bit too. No more searching for tab not drafted by a muppet.

[visog]

Going to be a bit militant here so... here goes...

You can ignore theory study area if are a savant like Hendrix who just hears it. But I'd suggest most people reading this are not!

Even the mighty Jaco studied from the arrangers in his formative years.

The abstract logic is that multiples of 3, 4, 5, 7 & 12 result in cadences, patterns and forms that result in a myriad of outcomes. Harmony and Melody-wise.

And to quote a well-worn phrase, you can't break the rules until you know the rules... So just get on with it and learn it.

But here's the rub - I can academically derive any chord, in any key - alterations and colourations included but I can't necessarily apply it in real-time in my bass lines which I guess is the real challenge.

[mikel]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1475853562' post='3149278']
Well no, they didn't learn, that's my point. Whenever their band started a new song, it'd be trial and error writing a bass line.

[b]Minor over a major isn't anything to do with a theorist[/b].
[/quote]

It is when a theorist, earlier in the thread, is pulling someone up about it.

Anyway, If you can play by ear, and know the neck, you know by experience what will work over any chord. Nothing wrong with theory but If you dont develop your ears, jamming or changing things on the fly will not be so easy. The ears are the greatest learning tool we have.

[mikel]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1475854625' post='3149288']
Bottom line is musical theory is about communication. Good musicians should be able to communicate within the language of music to each other.[b] I don't want to play with a guitarst who doesn't know what chords he's playing,[/b] thus I can't play the best bass line to make the music as good as it should be. I think alot of people want to take the easy route, and just get by.Learning theory is hard work. But it's very rewarding. Reading music I don't think is necessary. Music is about having fun, but as my Dad says, nothing really great came from anything that was easy.
[/quote]

Knowing what note or chord you are playing is hardly theory. I know the notes on the fretboard and guitar chords but I dont read music.

[bubinga5]

Are you saying that understanding chords and notes is not understanding musical theory ? I don't understand your association with theory and reading music.?

Edited October 7, 2016 by bubinga5

[mikel]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1475870298' post='3149466']
Are you saying that understanding chords and notes is not understanding musical theory ? I don't understand your association with theory and reading music.?
[/quote]

Its not theory, its practice.

[ambient]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1475869874' post='3149460']
Knowing what note or chord you are playing is hardly theory. I know the notes on the fretboard and guitar chords but I dont read music.
[/quote]

Reading music isn't theory, it's reading music. There's only one of my current students that is learning to read, but they're all learning some theory/harmony.

Knowing what notes you're playing, and knowing how they work against a given chord or scale is theory, or harmony. If you can construct an arpeggio then that again is demonstrating a knowledge harmony.

Edited October 7, 2016 by ambient

[mikel]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1475871301' post='3149472']
Reading music isn't theory, it's reading music. There's only one of my current students that is learning to read, but they're all learning some theory/harmony.
[/quote]

My point exactly, what was yours? I was responding to a post that suggested anyone that didnt know bass theory wouldnt know the notes on the fretboard of know the name of guitar chords.

[josie]

It was really interesting at Aynsley Lister's guitar tuition weekend recently to see the difference between Aynsley - who is one of the best blues-rock guitar players around, and grew up in a family of musicians learning it by ear - and his bass player Steve Amadeo who was stressing the importance of understanding scale and chord patterns - that you might be able to pick up or learn the root notes, but as soon as you want to develop and decorate a bassline you have to know which notes sound right.

I've been through the frustration of trying to develop a fill or run hit-or-miss, it's hugely rewarding and confidence-building to know "Ok, I'm in Dm pentatonic, so I go there". This doesn't mean I'm a theory pedant - maybe it means I don't have as good an ear as some of you

The comparison with learning languages made above is a very good one - some people learn more easily grammar-first (like me), some seem to be able to drop into an other-language environment and learn what noises to make by listening to the noises. It's a very general thing about learning styles.