Theory. Yes please or a bit of a yawn?

[bubinga5]

Good playing is a balance of theory and a good ear. The two intertwine. But I can guaranty you, if you listen listen listen, to as much diverse music as you can, absorb it. You will become a good bass player.whether your technical ability is up to scratch is what your mother gave you

[BigRedX]

I know a little bit of theory, but can someone who knows a lot more please explain to me how theory helps you pick the right notes to use depending on the style of music you are playing.

For instance given two songs with exactly the same chord sequences, the notes I would use for a bass line (especially those notes I use to get from one chord to another) would be completely different depending on the style of music I am playing.

Edited October 7, 2016 by BigRedX

[bubinga5]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1475875005' post='3149516']
I know a little bit of theory, but can someone who knows a lot more please explain to me how theory helps you pick the right notes to use depending on the style of music you are playing.

For instance given two songs with exactly the same chord sequences, the notes I would use for a bass line (especially those notes I use to get from one chord to another) would be completely different depending on the style of music I am playing.
[/quote]there isnt any right notes. that's up to you. Music is very free in that way.The style of music doesn't depict what note choices you use. I would say it's more the placement of those notes. I've heard reggae in a salsa groove, I've heard soul music records in a drum and bass vibe. I've heArd country and western music on hip hop records. The point is the more you listen the more you learn what is possible

Edited October 7, 2016 by bubinga5

[arthurhenry]

If you're really into playing and music, I don't see how you could fail to gain a knowledge of theory. You would surely have a natural interest in what things are called and why they work in the way they do. There's no need to sit down and study it if you're not so inclined; just play and learn as you go.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1475875574' post='3149520']
there isnt any right notes. that's up to you. Music is very free in that way.
[/quote]

Very true, but for any given style of music some note choices are very much better than others. And IME they vary from one style to another. Is there anything in music theory that can explain this, or is it simply down to individual taste combined with a good working knowledge of the style(s) of music you are playing?

[bubinga5]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1475877129' post='3149533']


Very true, but for any given style of music some note choices are very much better than others. And IME they vary from one style to another. Is there anything in music theory that can explain this, or is it simply down to individual taste combined with a good working knowledge of the style(s) of music you are playing?
[/quote]that's only because the music you have listened to has told you so. Imo the pioneers really broke ground by defying the norm. You might call that Jazz. Of course there is a formula.for arguments sake there are chords that work within the key of C major.

Edited October 7, 2016 by bubinga5

[josie]

For example: I'm the only person in "my band" who is into the blues, and when I started dropping chromatic "blue" notes into my basslines they were startled. "Sunshine of your Love" proved my point - and I don't do it in their cheesy Elton John covers. Knowing when to use a dominant or minor 7th - or even a major or minor 3rd - could be "theory" or could just be knowing what genre or key you're playing. Personally, the "theory" gives me confidence. Respect for those who can do it by ear.

[Dad3353]

It's not theory that creates music; it's music that creates theory. There is not one theory, but one theory for every style of music. Theory (tries to...) explain (or justify...) that which is played, but firstly it has to be played. Gregorian chant has its theory. Dixieland jazz has its theory. Romantic orchestral has its theory. Satie has its theory. Elvis has its theory. They can be mixed and matched (or not...), but contain different 'codes' and explanations as to why things sound the way they do, and how to create such-and-such an effect. One cannot compose Beethovenien symphonies using Bebop. One cannot create Bebop using Beethoven. All is good, and one may, if one chooses, ignore them all and create a new 'code'.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1475875005' post='3149516']
I know a little bit of theory, but can someone who knows a lot more please explain to me how theory helps you pick the right notes to use depending on the style of music you are playing.

For instance given two songs with exactly the same chord sequences, the notes I would use for a bass line (especially those notes I use to get from one chord to another) would be completely different depending on the style of music I am playing.
[/quote]

Thats a very insightful question. The short answer is that theory does not tell you "right" and "wrong" in absolute terms, it tells you how to achieve a particular effect. The same effect could sound good or bad in same point in the same chord progression depending on many factors such as the mood of the song, the genre or music or how other band members are interpreting it.

Time and time again people post questions in the T&T forum along the lines of "what should I play over these chords", theory will not tell you that in absolute terms, it will tell you what a particular note will sound like at a particular time, but whether that sound works or not is down to artistic judgement within the context of the song where there are a lot more variables at work than the bare chords.

Edited October 7, 2016 by bassman7755

[lowdown]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1475875005' post='3149516']
I know a little bit of theory, but can someone who knows a lot more please explain to me how theory helps you pick the right notes to use depending on the style of music you are playing.
[/quote]

It's not just note choice, rhythm choice goes a big way in defining a style of music.
[color=#141414][font=verdana, geneva, lucida,]Ruben Rodriguez would play I/IV/V as Tumbao and Adam Clayton as pumping rock Eighth notes (not knocking him by the way),[/font][/color]
[color=#141414][font=verdana, geneva, lucida,]Although I am sure you know this, BRX. [/font][/color]

People get hung up on note choice, scales and modes when getting into theory.
Rhythm plays an equal part as well.

I would have thought all musicians use their ears, or should do. Some have better ears than others, regardless of what theory is known.
Knowing theory doesn't hinder you in anyway when listening to music. In fact, you can name what notes or chords you are hearing.
What's wrong with that? Certainly quicker when transcribing and you want to get it down onto paper.

A yes please from me.

Edited October 8, 2016 by lowdown

[zbd1960]

What is called 'theory' is a mixture of things. Part of it you might describe as 'mechanicals' - it's for example, how we define things like keys. That is so that we know what we are working with and also it provides a common 'language' so that musicians can talk to each other and stand some chance of understanding each other.

Other apsects of theory are around the practice and style of music. The various styles/genres have their rule sets, which are part of the characteristics which define those genres. The rule sets are different for the different styles, which is why a piece of high baroque written in 1735 is different from a piece of early baroque from 1610, which is different from Beethoven, 1920s jazz, blues, or 1950s rock n roll.

The rule sets affect the harmonies which are used and how they are used. Palestrina would never have used an unprepared dissonance, nor a tertiary modulation like Beethoven.

Can you play music without understanding or knowing what a Neopolitan sixth or a teriary modulation is? Yes, of course you can. Does having some undertsanding of how it hangs together have benefits and likely to be helpful with your playing? Yes.

The language analogy is a good one. You won't be surprised to learn that I like to know and undertsand the grammar and I'm currently trying to find the time to sit grade 7 music theory...

[Coilte]

I would compare knowing music theory to being like someone who can speak the English (or any) language but does not know the alphabet or how to spell, and as a result, can't read or write. They have learned by mimicking what others say. This is no bad thing, and they'll get by quite OK if you communicate via word of mouth. However, emails, texts, books, newspapers, forums like this, ...etc are a non runner.

Obviously these people are excluding themselves from a lot of rewarding and useful information.

[JamesBass]

For what I do I need theory. It makes learning songs easier it also makes communicating things easier. Having the ability to turn up to a jam night and instantly change a key in the fly to suit the singer is great, as is being able to work with any band and follow the chord changes. It also allows me to take the lead more often and write my own songs.

The way I approach bass playing is unlike anyone else I've come across, I see it as a problem to be solved and knowing what people are playing allows me to decide what's best for me to play, genres also dictate what I should and shouldn't do. Without my theory knowledge I'd be held back massively. I also find learning the theory really rewarding and very fun and interesting!

[Kirky]

Yes, the language/grammar comparison is spot on. To answer the OP's question - Yes. The study of theory is fascinating in itself, even if you just do it to a limited level, it will open your mind and probably help your playing. My own view is that its much easier to make sense of it all if you're a keyboard player or have access to a keyboard. And remember, at the end of the day it's all maths and physics and wholly natural. The circle of 5ths, the relationships between major and relative minor keys, cadences, even a simple investigation of these things will help you understand how music works.

[JapanAxe]

When I started learning guitar, I soon realised that I would make much better progress if I understood what I was doing. This was 1978 so no Internet, but I got a long way using books and just going over the stuff until I 'got' it. It is an ongoing journey of discovery, and it has never made me yawn.

So 'yes please' for me.

Edited October 8, 2016 by JapanAxe

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='Barking Spiders' timestamp='1475851544' post='3149251']
I only play stuff I like and so in terms of progression I'm limited by this and get a bit frustrated. I know I've a chance of improving if I listened to and studied jazz/fusion players like Wootten, Bailey, Berlin, Patitucci etc - which would involve more advanced theory - but just don't like this type of music. If I learnt their styles of chops and tried to fit them in with what I like to play it'd sound well out of place.
[/quote]
There's plenty of theory to learn without going to these extremes. What do you like playing?

[Paul S]

Bit of a yawn here, I am afraid. In a perfect world it would be nice to learn music theory as it would make make my bass playing easier plus I would have greater understanding of what I actually do and why I do it. Unfortunately I don't have time as I have other, equally demanding aspects of my life away from music.

But I get by perfectly well - I play in two bands where I would say the level of musicianship is pretty high and my lack of theory doesn't hold me back, nor does it matter to my band mates. In one band the guitarist sight reads and is one of the most gifted amateur guitarists I have heard, the keyboard player is a music teacher. Yes, it slows me down during the learning process but, importantly, once I am there I believe I can play what I need to play as well as anyone. If I couldn't I wouldn't be able maintain my spot as bassist in those bands as they would find someone better.

So for me, the type of music I play and the situations in which I find myself musically, it doesn't really matter and the extra effort involved in learning music theory doesn't seem necessary. I suspect a lot of us are in a similar position.

[Coilte]

[quote name='Paul S' timestamp='1475918954' post='3149712']
Bit of a yawn here, I am afraid. In a perfect world it would be nice to learn music theory as it would make make my bass playing easier plus I would have greater understanding of what I actually do and why I do it. Unfortunately I don't have time as I have other, equally demanding aspects of my life away from music. [/quote]

No one s saying that you have to spend hours on end, day in and day out, hunched over a theory book. If you could put in just twenty minutes, say, twice a day (or even once a day), you'd be surprised at how much you'd learn over a period of a couple of months. In fact, it is generally advised to approach learning theory in small bite sized chunks.

I'm sure you'll agree that it's a lot of reward for comparatively little learning time.

Where there's a will...there's a way.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Coilte

[Paul S]

I guess we all have different life balances. I have other fish to fry - I'd rather spend that time learning something botanical or researching plant habitats. Or spending 30 minutes a day on Basschat explaining why I don't have time to do it

[JTUK]

[quote name='Paul S' timestamp='1475918954' post='3149712']
Bit of a yawn here, I am afraid. In a perfect world it would be nice to learn music theory as it would make make my bass playing easier plus I would have greater understanding of what I actually do and why I do it. Unfortunately I don't have time as I have other, equally demanding aspects of my life away from music.

But[b] I get by perfectly well - I play in two bands where I would say the level of musicianship is pretty high and my lack of theory doesn't hold me back, nor does it matter to my band mates. In one band the guitarist sight reads and is one of the most gifted amateur guitarists I have heard, the keyboard player is a music teacher. Yes, it slows me down during the learning process but, importantly, once I am there I believe I can play what I need to play as well as anyone. If I couldn't I wouldn't be able maintain my spot as bassist in those bands as they would find someone better. [/b]

So for me, the type of music I play and the situations in which I find myself musically, it doesn't really matter and the extra effort involved in learning music theory doesn't seem necessary. I suspect a lot of us are in a similar position.
[/quote]

In some bands the guys wouldn't have the time or inclination to wait whilst you got it but it can't be a problem in your outfit as they'd use someone else otherwise.
There are plenty of pick-up bands that do the gig on the spot... you don't know the set, you have a large repetoire of songs you know ...but you've never played
and you are given the key or a pad. You probably haven't ever met half the band-- these are the situations that you need to nail if you want to play with other guys that can do that.

And the reason you'd probably want to do this is because most of the good guys inhabit this territory, IME

Having said that... there is always some very talented guy who breaks all the rules and just does it his way..

The more tricks you have, the more bases you can cover..? Reading 'fly-sh*t' doesn't mean you can play tho' either so you get known for what you can carry off..when the heat is on.

[mikel]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1475918117' post='3149700'][b]I would c[/b]

[b]ompare knowing music theory to being like someone who can speak the English (or any) language but does not know the alphabet or how to spell, and as a result, can't read or write. They have learned by mimicking what others say.[/b] This is no bad thing, and they'll get by quite OK if you communicate via word of mouth. However, emails, texts, books, newspapers, forums like this, ...etc are a non runner.

Obviously these people are excluding themselves from a lot of rewarding and useful information.
[/quote]

To play devils advocate. Surely playing from music is more akin to mimicking what others have played? In fact it is playing exactly what others have already played.

To use another analogy. Its like learning a language by reading books, its ok for theory but you only learn to converse with other by doing it.

[peteb]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1475932898' post='3149877']
To play devils advocate. Surely playing from music is more akin to mimicking what others have played? In fact it is playing exactly what others have already played.

To use another analogy. Its like learning a language by reading books, its ok for theory but you only learn to converse with other by doing it.
[/quote]
First point - you seem to be confusing knowing some musical theory with reading music! That's not to say that it is perfectly valid to play a line as written in many musical situations.

Second point - yes

[bubinga5]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1475932898' post='3149877']


To play devils advocate. Surely playing from music is more akin to mimicking what others have played? In fact it is playing exactly what others have already played.

To use another analogy. Its like learning a language by reading books, its ok for theory but you only learn to converse with other by doing it.
[/quote] this isnt karaoke. Playing from a written peice of music takes years of practice. I wonder what Anthony Jackson would say if you said Anthony, mate your just playing what someone else has played. Ridiculous thing to say. Your lines between reading music and learning theory are blurred.

Edited October 8, 2016 by bubinga5

[ambient]

I think people are confusing things.

To me at least, theory is the harmony side of things, scales, arpeggios etc.

How you use them, what you play and when is more a styles kind of thing.

You use each of them to to be able to play to a good and versatile standard.

Reading is just that, reading.

At least that's how things were broken down and taught on my degree course.

My knowledge of harmony/theory teaches me what notes can be played over a given chord sequence or in a part.

My experience and teaching of styles tells me how those notes should be played given the genre or song that I'm playing.

My sight-reading skills get me paid gigs and opportunities like playing for a summer on a cruise ship around the med 6 years ago. And playing at shows at Birmingham Rep theatre. Getting called for last minute paid gigs because the guys know I can turn up, and just play, and not have to faff around learning each song.

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Being a good sight-reader goes with the other things. I can sight-read something, and use the information given to me in the chart, it's not just dots don't forget, to play in a way that will sound right for that song or piece of music.[/font][/color]

Whether anyone needs to have, or to bother and learn anything, is entirely down to that particular individual. However neither being able to sight-read pretty much anything put in front of me, or having a really good harmonic knowledge has ever held me back creatively, in fact it has helped me enormously.

Edited October 8, 2016 by ambient

[bubinga5]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1475935130' post='3149913']
I think people are confusing things.

To me at least, theory is the harmony side of things, scales, arpeggios etc.

How you use them, what you play and when is more a styles kind of thing.

You use each of them to to be able to play to a good and versatile standard.

Reading is just that, reading.

At least that's how things were broken down and taught on my degree course.

My knowledge of harmony/theory teaches me what notes can be played over a given chord sequence or in a part.

My experience and teaching of styles tells me how those notes should be played given the genre or song that I'm playing.

My sight-reading skills get me paid gigs and opportunities like playing for a summer on a cruise ship around the med 6 years ago.

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Being a good sight-reader goes with the other things. I can sight-read something, and use the information given to me in the chart, it's not just dots don't forget, to play in a way that will sound right for that song or piece of music.[/font][/color]

Whether anyone needs to have, or to bother and learn anything, is entirely down to that particular individual. However neither being able to sight-read pretty much anything put in front of me, or having a really good harmonic knowledge has ever held me back creatively, in fact it has helped me enormously.
[/quote]ooh ooh dont forget theory is also rythm 😊. Ok everything in any song ever written has to do with theory.ill shut up now.

Edited October 8, 2016 by bubinga5