Theory. Yes please or a bit of a yawn?

[ambient]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1475935942' post='3149917']
ooh ooh dont forget theory is also rythm . Ok everything in any song ever written has to do with theory.ill shut up now.
[/quote]

I see where you're coming from. I'd have included rhythm in with styles though, at least that's where it came at uni. We covered rhythm when we'd look at latin, jazz etc. Different genres where rhythms each have their own individual feel. Reggae for instance has it's own 'feel'. I can't play reggae to save my life. Jazz, latin etc are no problem, but I've never gotten reggae.

[Bilbo]

I recommend that you don't learn theory and don't learn to read.

That way, I will continue to get the gigs you won't get called for.

Seriously, I gig weekly with some of the world's greatest players and COULD NOT DO IT without theory and reading. If a player like John Etheridge puts a piece of coffee stained paper in front of you, you need to make it into something musical WITHOUT ANY REHEARSAL. You need to be ready.

[ambient]

In my opinion at least, a reasonable knowledge of harmony, rhythm, interpretation of each with regard to styles/genre, is something every musician should know. However, it's up to each person to make their own mind up how much they want to learn, and feel that they need to learn.

In fact it quite baffles me as to why people belittle knowledge, and those who have it, or strive to have it.

Edited October 8, 2016 by ambient

[stingrayPete1977]

Reading and theory always get confused by those who generally get involved with neither, I was one of those people, I don't sight read but I can use my limited reading to play a theory excersize from a book at my own pace, the method of using an agreed set of dots and lines is a lot quicker than "up a bit, down a bit, no hold that one a bit longer, down a bit but not as far as normal then quickly back up a bit and stop, play the next notes but I'm not telling you what they are or for how long"

[wateroftyne]

In my case, given the musical circles I move in, I'll concede that if I'd learned to read, I might perhaps be doing more deps in function bands than I do.

A lucky escape, I reckon. Bit of course if I want to do more gigs like that, I'll put the effort in to learn.

Theory? Again, in my case, hardly anyone I work with bothers with the minutiae. We just write songs and parts, and play 'em. Some are theoretical geniuses, and I don't see them gaining any great advantage for what we do.

I guess if I wanted to do gigs like what Bilbo does, I wouldn't last 30 seconds.

[lowdown]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1475937654' post='3149940']
"up a bit, down a bit, no hold that one a bit longer, down a bit but not as far as normal then quickly back up a bit and stop, play the next notes but I'm not telling you what they are or for how long"
[/quote]

The 'Bernie The Bolt' method. I claim my fiver.

Edited October 8, 2016 by lowdown

[Dan Dare]

Jeff Berlin has some trenchant comments on this topic. One of his questions is "Would you refuse to learn to read language? Then why music?" I've played with some who say things to the effect that reading and an understanding of harmony, etc will "restrict their creativity", etc.

There's no need to go overboard, but a working knowledge is a very useful thing to have. As bubinga and stingray pete say, you can learn any piece/part without having to play/pause a recording or have someone else teach it to you note by note, with frequent repetition whilst you go over and over it - very few can hear something and play it straight off the bat (those that can tend to be able to read anyway - almost all at that level of competence will be only too aware of the value of musical literacy). That alone makes it worthwhile. You don't have to read everything, but it's valuable to be able to if the occasion demands it.

I think the reason some "belittle knowledge, and those who have it, or strive to have it" as ambient puts it so well, is because they feel threatened.

[mikel]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1475934645' post='3149907']
this isnt karaoke. Playing from a written peice of music takes years of practice. I wonder what Anthony Jackson would say if you said Anthony, mate your just playing what someone else has played. Ridiculous thing to say. Your lines between reading music and learning theory are blurred.
[/quote]

Firstly, you obviously missed the "Devils advocate" part of my post. Also, it was you that suggested that if you cant read and write you cant possibly converse.properly.

And I am not belittling knowledge, If it floats your boat and you require it to do what you want or need to do thats fine. No problem, but dont suggest its the way for everyone. We all have our own way of learning and progressing.

I have been playing bass in bands and jamming with other musicians for 35 years and not once has someone said "You need more music theory mate". Not that it makes me in any way special, just one of many that are not interested in theory and prefer to do it my own way. Not right or wrong just what suits me, and I would never suggest to someone in the theory camp that they are wasting there time cos there not, they are just doing what suits them.

Edited October 8, 2016 by mikel

[Steve Woodcock]

Let's remember that the study of theory came [i]after[/i] the music, it exists to explain why things sound the way they do, and to establish order so that concepts can be communicated to others.

If you feel that tritone substitutions and metric modulations etc. have no interest for you, that's fine, but I think every musician would benefit from at least a rudimentary understanding of basic theory. To use an example, your guitarist walks in to the rehearsal room with a new tune his written and he wants you all to play it:

"OK, it's real simple 4/4 thing guys. It's in B major, verse and chorus just alternate between chords I and IV, two bars each. Jim, just play sparse roots and fifths on the verse, but when we hit the chorus can you play continuous eighth notes?"

These two sentences contain the following theory terms which helped convey what he wanted to everyone: time signature (4/4), key (B major), form (verse, chorus; bars), harmony (chords I, IV; root, fifth), and rhythm (8th notes).

Gaining knowledge of it will not strangle your creativity, it will simply get you where you want to go faster.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Stickman' timestamp='1475943924' post='3149987']

"OK, it's real simple 4/4 thing guys. It's in B major, verse and chorus just alternate between chords I and IV, two bars each. Jim, just play sparse roots and fifths on the verse, but when we hit the chorus can you play continuous eighth notes?"
[/quote]

Crikey. I'm glad I'm not in that band.

[louisthebass]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1475863650' post='3149393']
What has Jazz got to do with it. There is complex music everywhere.
[/quote]

Having read the OP's original post, he appeared not to be interested in pursuing improvisational music as it would bore most punters (his opinion, not mine I hasten to add...).

When I had the conversation with the guy at the studio, he was very much an "ear" player and was quite content to have just a very basic understanding of music in relation to that, which is absolutely fine. My comment to him was along the lines of "if you're just looking at getting involved with writing pop / rock type stuff, as long as you know your Major and Minor chords, you're sorted. You don't need to know anything about the Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor and the relative modes contained within, because it doesn't really get anywhere near most mainstream chart music". My comment previously was based on the original question by the OP, I've just used the above to illustrate similar.

If I had to be honest, I love theory - I like finding out how this music thing works (and I like Jazz / inprovisational music). If my comments offended you, it wasn't intended as I actually like a lot of the stuff you share on here.

[Skybone]

Always found it a bit boring, though I now wish I'd spent a bit more time learning more about it.

[mikel]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1475937373' post='3149935']
I recommend that you don't learn theory and don't learn to read.

That way, I will continue to get the gigs you won't get called for.

Seriously, I gig weekly with some of the world's greatest players and COULD NOT DO IT without theory and reading. If a player like John Etheridge puts a piece of coffee stained paper in front of you, you need to make it into something musical WITHOUT ANY REHEARSAL. You need to be ready.
[/quote]

As I pointed out, you learn what you need, to do what you want in music.I had neither the natural talent, the time or the desire to be a pro musician. Most of us will never play with the worlds best players so we also dont need the knowledge you have. I am more than happy with my level of playing and the gigs I have performed. I have worked with some superb musicians and had some great improv jams.

[JTUK]

If your circle is cosy, and you don't meet a lot of others players, you may not know what you need. I see this a lot at a local level where guys are doing it totally by ear when they could really do with knowing more than jamming a 12 bar and not too well.

I advise people to get out of 'their' comfort zone as this will likely show up where you may be short. If you are known outside of your town by good players who work a lot, it will be apparent what you need to know and be able to do because you wont work with them otherwise, These aren't your mates who tolerate you, they have choices of a lot of people....
If you don't give a damn about that, then no problem, but if you only have a very small circle of friends you play with, I feel this can be very very limiting. if you want to push on.
It is certainly not the root to getting good dep gigs either, IMO.

[Coilte]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1475948293' post='3150028']
I am more than happy with my level of playing and the gigs I have performed.
[/quote]

That's great, and I'm sure no one begrudges you that. All that the theorists are saying is that for those of us who are [i]not[/i] content to rest on our laurels, learning theory is the way to progress.

Personally, while I enjoy playing and gigging, I always want to be just that little bit better than I presently am. I'd hate to be so happy with it, that I had no goals to strive for. I'd be bored out of my tree in no time. YMMV.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Coilte

[ambient]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1475955852' post='3150117']
That's great, and I'm sure no one begrudges you that. All that the theorists are saying is that for those of us who are [i]not[/i] content to rest on our laurels, learning theory is the way to progress.

Personally, while I enjoy playing and gigging, I always want to be just that little better than I presently am. I'd hate to be so happy with it, that I had no goals to strive for. I'd be bored out of my tree in no time. YMMV.
[/quote]

That's pretty much something that I said in another thread the other day. This was the reply:


[i][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Yea, its the new obsession . You have to be better,bigger, stronger, faster, fitter, blah. blah.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]No you dont. You only have to be happy and healthy. If you are happy with how and who you are, no matter how average, then you have cracked the meaning of life.. If you are not happy cos you are constantly striving to be perceived as "better" at something, so much so you cant accept or enjoy what you already have, then I am truly sorry for you.[/font][/color][/i]

[Coilte]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1475957195' post='3150133']
That's pretty much something that I said in another thread the other day. This was the reply:


[i][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Yea, its the new obsession . You have to be better,bigger, stronger, faster, fitter, blah. blah.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]No you dont. You only have to be happy and healthy. If you are happy with how and who you are, no matter how average, then you have cracked the meaning of life.. If you are not happy cos you are constantly striving to be perceived as "better" at something, so much so you cant accept or enjoy what you already have, then I am truly sorry for you.[/font][/color][/i]
[/quote]


Well...all can say is...to each their own. For me, as far as playing music is concerned, it is the striving to be just a little better that makes it all worth while.

Everyone is different, and each of us has a different attitude to playing...and life in general...for that matter.

I think it is possible to be able to to do both...i.e. enjoy what you have at present, but at the same time strive to be a little better. I don't see any contradiction here.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Coilte

[zbd1960]

I also play cello and tenor sax. The music world isn't very large and I've had a few calls over the last couple of years to dep in various concerts for several orchestras (I should be doing one tonight in Kidderminster, but I decided I needed a rest). Now, I don't want to imply I'm a genius, I'm not - I'm around grade 6 or 7 on cello, but my sight-reading is pretty good (because I'm an experienced choral singer and used to reading lots of stuff). I've done a lot of theory (because I like doing it). The end result is I can go to one of these gigs and do a decent job - I'm not being held back by my reading and the theory means I'm not thrown by weird things happening (e.g. odd time signatures or performance direction e.g. bowing spiccato or col legno as happened with a piece of Piazolla recently ([url="https://youtu.be/dMXoyJ8P1oE"]Tangazo[/url])).

But, that's me.

Edited October 8, 2016 by zbd1960

[ambient]

[quote name='zbd1960' timestamp='1475958138' post='3150139']
I also play cello and tenor sax. The music world isn't very large and I've had a few calls over the last couple of years to dep in various concerts for several orchestras (I should be doing one tonight in Kidderminster, but I decided I needed a rest). Now, I don't want to imply I'm a genius, I'm not - I'm around grade 6 or 7 on cello, but my sight-reading is pretty good (because I'm an experienced choral singer and used to reading lots of stuff). I've done a lot of theory (because I like doing it). The end result is I can go to one of these gigs and do a decent job - I'm not being held back by my reading and the theory means I'm not thrown by weird things happening (e.g. odd time signatures or performance direction e.g. bowing spiccato or col legno as happened with a piece of Piazolla recently ([url="https://youtu.be/dMXoyJ8P1oE"]Tangazo[/url])).

But, that's me.
[/quote]

Exactly, it all opens doors for you.

I came to bass playing via playing violin at school, then classical guitar. I had weekly lessons for both instruments, learning to read etc.

When it came to playing bass, I expected to be given charts to read from, it never occurred to me that you could play any other way.

[zbd1960]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1475958596' post='3150143']
Exactly, it all opens doors for you.

I came to bass playing via playing violin at school, then classical guitar. I had weekly lessons for both instruments, learning to read etc.

When it came to playing bass, I expected to be given charts to read from, it never occurred to me that you could play any other way.
[/quote]I know

[stingrayPete1977]

Just done a wedding, "oh yes did you learn the first dance?" , nope, here's the chord chart then, it was an easy song tbh but it's not going to work with the 'working it out by ear method' in that situation, we didn't even sound check never mind have time to run through the song.

[scalpy]

[quote name='zbd1960' timestamp='1475958138' post='3150139']
I also play cello and tenor sax. The music world isn't very large and I've had a few calls over the last couple of years to dep in various concerts for several orchestras (I should be doing one tonight in Kidderminster, but I decided I needed a rest). Now, I don't want to imply I'm a genius, I'm not - I'm around grade 6 or 7 on cello, but my sight-reading is pretty good (because I'm an experienced choral singer and used to reading lots of stuff). I've done a lot of theory (because I like doing it). The end result is I can go to one of these gigs and do a decent job - I'm not being held back by my reading and the theory means I'm not thrown by weird things happening (e.g. odd time signatures or performance direction e.g. bowing spiccato or col legno as happened with a piece of Piazolla recently ([url="https://youtu.be/dMXoyJ8P1oE"]Tangazo[/url])).

But, that's me.
[/quote]

Sounds like The Film Orchestra with Ed Malpas!

Must admit I find it bizarre that any number of people will bang on about off axis response of cabs, how to link 3 drive pedals together or why they need a bass that's got a neck 1/16th of an inch thinner than another- but are quite happy not to be bothered how their music works!

[Coilte]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1475994790' post='3150232']
Sounds like The Film Orchestra with Ed Malpas!

Must admit I find it bizarre that any number of people will bang on about off axis response of cabs, how to link 3 drive pedals together or why they need a bass that's got a neck 1/16th of an inch thinner than another- but are quite happy not to be bothered how their music works!
[/quote]

Good point.

I have also seen detailed discussions on the audio frequencies of each string...and to think that some people find theory boring.

[zbd1960]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1475994790' post='3150232']
Sounds like The Film Orchestra with Ed Malpas!

Must admit I find it bizarre that any number of people will bang on about off axis response of cabs, how to link 3 drive pedals together or why they need a bass that's got a neck 1/16th of an inch thinner than another- but are quite happy not to be bothered how their music works!
[/quote]Indeed it was - I've done several gigs with them on cello. I play in one of the smaller groups on tenor sax as well. I'd do more with them, but I'm the wrong end of Shropshire for it to be easy

[wateroftyne]

I had an interesting conversation last night - we gigged with a dep drummer who I've played with a few times. He's schooled in percussion and musical theory, and teaches.

He likes my playing, and said he was surprised I hadn't got into to teaching.

I told him my knowledge of theory is minimal, and I wouldn't know where to start. He was amazed... he didn't believe me. He couldn't understand how I do what I do without and in-depth understanding of what's going on.

The point I'm clumsily trying to make is that he has his approach, and I have mine. Both are valid, and although having the theory has clear benefits, going the other route can still lead to good gigs with good players.