Theory. Yes please or a bit of a yawn?

[Baxter]

I know nothing of formal theory. I suppose like a great many of us here who play by ear, the application of the theory is more by instinct than design.

[ambient]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1476103592' post='3151263']
BTW how do you tell whether they key is the major or the minor one that uses the same notes?
[/quote]

You can generally tell by the chords.

[Steve Woodcock]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1476103592' post='3151263']
BTW how do you tell whether they key is the major or the minor one that uses the same notes?

[/quote]

Actually, the major and relative minor keys do not share [i]all[/i] the same notes, though the altered note is not noted in the key signature.

In order to establish a key there must exist a [b]dominant 7th[/b] chord (a major triad with a minor 7th interval on top) on the 5th degree of the key, this chord creates a very strong 'pull' back towards the [b]tonic[/b] (the root of the key) as it contains the [b]leading tone[/b] which is a semi-tone below the tonic. For example, in the key of C major the dominant 7th chord would be G7 which contains the notes G, B, D and F; B is the [i]leading tone[/i] of C major.

[u]This rule exists for minor keys too.[/u] Therefore, in the key of A minor - which is the [i]relative minor [/i]of C major - we have to raise the note G by a semitone in order to create a [i]leading tone[/i] and thus a dominant 7th chord on the 5th scale degree, if we didn't do this we would have an E minor 7 chord on the 5th degree, rather than an E7, which wouldn't contain that strong 'pull' back to the tonic of A. This is where the [b]harmonic minor[/b] scale derives from as it contains that raised 7th degree (A, B, C, D, E, F, G#).

[ivansc]

BigRedX: My sarky comments about it being the bass player who always decides what key a piece is in usually get short shrift from the guitwrists... till they are playing in C and you turn it into A minor just to piss them off! We ARE in charge!

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1476103592' post='3151263']
(and BTW how do you tell whether they key is the major or the minor one that uses the same notes?)
[/quote]

It might contain the same chords but they will be used differently to imply different root (tonic) notes, usually its just "obvious" when listening, theory will tell you why and so allow you to vary/adapt/arrange a song if desired without messing with the key defining elements.

[quote]
I think that because a lot of rock and pop music is written by people who don't always know what they are doing, it has a tendency to either be completely obvious, so obtuse that basic theory will no longer help you out.
[/quote]

I find theory useful in both these cases, in the first case it makes an easy song trivial and in the second case it tells you why the obtuse bits sound like they do. Same applies as above to any messing around with it.

Edited October 11, 2016 by bassman7755

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Stickman' timestamp='1476115446' post='3151459']
Actually, the major and relative minor keys do not share [i]all[/i] the same notes, though the altered note is not noted in the key signature.

In order to establish a key there must exist a [b]dominant 7th[/b] chord
[/quote]

It helps but isn't essential. There are tonnes of minor key songs that dont use a Vmajor/dominant (e.g. all along the watchtower which was discussed recently).

[Bilbo]

I had an audition for a band in London when I was about 23. The band were playing a tune as I set up. When I was ready, the guitarist said he would show me the chords. I said 'it's in C, isn't it'? He replied 'we don't do any of that muso sh*t'. I thought 'twat' and learned it the hard way.

I get that people can do this without theory just as people can speak without knowing grammar but I just find that the more tools you have the better. Playing music without understanding the building blocks is like fixing a car with a butter knife and some chewing gum. Yes, it can work but why the hell would you? :-D

[Barking Spiders]

I agree that there are certain aspects of theory we should all know e.g. chord structures & inversions, scales and keys. With just those plus a good ear, solid technique and an innate sense of rhythm and good taste you can do just fine.

[Steve Woodcock]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1476164048' post='3151817']
It helps but isn't essential. There are tonnes of minor key songs that dont use a Vmajor/dominant (e.g. all along the watchtower which was discussed recently).
[/quote]

Although 'All Along The Watchtower' has a minor tonality it is not in a minor[i] key[/i], rather it is a [b]modal[/b] (aeolian). To adhere to the European concept of major/minor functional harmony there has to be a leading tone which points to the tonic; Watchtower consists of chords i, bVII and bVI so there is no leading tone present.

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1475844921' post='3149175']
I have no interest in musical theory for any instrument. I am from the old school. Listen, try to play,listen again. Modify, adapt, use happy accidents. Dont copy or "Study" anyone, enjoy there playing personality and absorb a little of it into your playing. Try to be a little different and have your own playing personality/sound. Its Rock and Roll, there are no rules.
[/quote]
That sounds like a list of rules!

[CrackerJackLee]

You have all fallen into the trap of the False Dichotomy. This is why the uneducated argue so much. Lack of letters, lack of understanding. This is a divisive thread by design, as there exists no sharp division when navigating a bass fingerboard. The proposal of ear and theory as contrary is devious. This is a fallacy without the support of reason, as music is not a zero sum game.

You have been presented with the false dilemma of X or Y. The either-or fallacy is that either claim X is true OR claim Y is true. Actually X and Y could both be true or both be false. Some amongst us claim that Y is false, therefore claim X must be true. This is black-and-white thinking applied to a false choice.

For myself, I cannot determine, when improvising, whether I am following my ear or applying a rule of musical harmony. When improvising, I sense the change from dominant to tonic... I hear it coming like a train approaching. For example in the key of C Major, G7 resolves to C Major. I can hear within my mind the possibility of the descending bass line G F E D C. F is the seventh of G7. F leads to E by proximity. E is the third of the C Major triad. G7 (GBDF) resolves to C Major (CEG) because the G7 tritone of BF exchanges with the CM tritone of CE. These two chords swap tritones! Resolution! So, I play the descending bass line which takes the band home. This applies to Dixieland as well as to Ska. Did I do this by ear or by reason? Who knows? Who cares? Improvisation can be accomplished by ear or by reason. Let the detectives figure out the modus operandi.

Musical notation is another matter, altogether. Written music is freeze dried brain juice. You or Beethoven read and play it exactly alike, but he composed it. You, my friend are merely repeating it like a musical parrot. You are covering Mr. L.V.B. Your ear and reasoning are not required. Like a secretary typing a letter based on the boss's scribbling, you only read and play. Your only contribution is how well you can type... or play

Copying/covering a Classic Rock or Reggae tune from a record does not demand that you can read. It does not demand that you can play by ear. It does not demand that you know any rules of music harmony or melody. You simply copy, by trial and error, someone else's bass line. Monkee see! Monkee do! Then you simply repeat the bass line until you inculcate it into your memory. After learning a hundred such songs, you gain a talent for predicting where your fingers should go, without ever knowing why.

There are many ways to play bass. Read. Improvise. Memorise. Only improvisation and composition can benefit from a knowledge of musical theory. If you are a musical parrot, copying other people's bass lines off a CD, then you can laugh and piss on theory to your heart's contentment. These musicians rave on about just being reeeeaaal, maaaan! Just play for fun, and the sun comes up and the sun goes down... only geeks study musical harmony and melodic theory, eh? So, the construction worker laughs at mathematics and performs his bit... does as he is told, thinking that he has great skills... but somewhere, in a dim loft, in the middle of the night, an unknown architect is calculating loads... and creating buildings.

Don't get me wrong. Tinkering is fine. It is fun... thrilling even.... like going to a casino. You never know, eh...? Music is all things considered. You may remain here, or you may continue. Blue or Red...?

There are many ways to perform gymnastics. One may follow instructions or improvise movements on the fly or memorise a routine. As the gymnast progresses in their trade, they see commonalities and natural sequences that fit together. Intelligence recognizes patterns. From patterns rules are formed and tested.

When some one, out of shame, claims that your study of music is useless and that they have some "born with a magical talent" gift, that is superlative to any musical study, (either you have it or you don't, eh...?) realise that they are merely playing bass as a clever monkey would copy Jane Goodall writing in her notebook, and never understanding what they are doing or be able to read their scribble. Yet, they want to discourage you from going forward. To manipulate you by shame into not progressing so that they may feel comfortable or superior.

Personally, I want to hear that flatted seventh interval before it arrives so that I am the one who plays it. I want to hear with my ear and my mind. I want to understand why my ear hears that triton-swap that resolves a dominant-tonic resolution. I want to read the experiences of others who intelligently examine the laws of nature as set by God. Perhaps, to even explain it in language to communicate the phenomenon that I am immersed in when playing music. To intelligently discuss all aspects of music and not bow to the tyranny of some monkey who can never see what I am capable of seeing. Believe it! Achieve it!

Talent plus Theory:
Carol Kaye, Paul McCartney, Jaco Pastorius, Ray Brown, Charles Mingus, [ print your name here ]...

Music is not a zero sum game. It is a personal journey. It is an Art and a Science...Music is all things to all people. Play like a boss.

Edited December 4, 2016 by CrackerJackLee

[grandad]

I'm afraid this thread est devenu moyen sur ma tete.

So, as an amateur late-comer to bass, or any music making, I shall just continue to gain pleasure from my efforts, enjoy the company of some lovely fellow musicians, and slowly gather musical knowledge and theory as I go along.

I'm sure some will wish me bon voyage.

Edited December 4, 2016 by grandad

[kevvo66]

It's all about enjoying yourself people if you don't try something else, I learnt theory when I first learnt guitar many moons ago ,and thought I was a smart arse when I was younger as you do , I then played with some older muso,s ,who didn't read music or do theory these guys were real good and I got put in my place , now I play by ear and have done so since my total humiliation, I still enjoy theory but it keep to myself, as long as get your groove on just enjoy it .swings and roundabouts really people 😳

Edited December 9, 2016 by kevvo66

[Coilte]

[quote name='kevvo66' timestamp='1481305358' post='3191415']
I then played with some older muso,s ,who didn't read music or do theory these guys were real good and I got put in my place
[/quote]

I can only imagine how "good" those guys would have been if they [i]did [/i]know some theory, and could read.