Barefaced FR800 - Anyone with Experience?

[stingrayPete1977]

I didn't know they were active!

[51m0n]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1476264932' post='3152755']
I get what you are saying - but essentially it's no different to changing the eq on the main outs on the desk, you are just doing it on the speakers rather than the desk (and limited to the 4 presets). Everybody should be tuning the PA to the room as best practice anyway.
[/quote]

Yes and no, the DSP is heavily targeted to the cab, and it isn't just eq, there is also some soft limiting and compression algorithms in there as you get near to what the cabs max delivery is if I understand it correctly.

With enough time and effort I could get close with the XR18 to the same kind of targeted speaker management, it has a 4 band compressor/limiter I can engage across the main out and all the eq I could ever need. But that takes a lot longer than selecting the best DSP set up on the back of the speaker to get me very close to something that suits the room. I may then choose in tweaking the mix or the overall eq/dynamics of the XR18 2 buss to fine tune that further for a really bad room if I need to.

[51m0n]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1476268422' post='3152808']
I didn't know they were active!
[/quote]

Oh yeah, very, 800 watts per cab, and the DSP does help you get the most out of that if you have to push them hard

[stevie]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1476268422' post='3152808']
I didn't know they were active!
[/quote]

It doesn't look like they are active. They are powered. I think most people would expect an active system (two power amps and an electronic crossover) for that money.

[deksawyer]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1476275307' post='3152890']
It doesn't look like they are active. They are powered. I think most people would expect an active system (two power amps and an electronic crossover) for that money.
[/quote]

What's your opinion on active versus powered?

D.

[crez5150]

[quote name='deksawyer' timestamp='1476275699' post='3152896']
What's your opinion on active versus powered?

D.
[/quote]

Both have pro's and con's

[51m0n]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1476275307' post='3152890']
It doesn't look like they are active. They are powered. I think most people would expect an active system (two power amps and an electronic crossover) for that money.
[/quote]

Hmmm, there's not much in it regarding active vs powered once you add in the dsp, plus this solution is lightweight, and I mean seriously easy to schlepp, significantly lighter than the powered EV monitors we have as well, which are far less powerful, and don't sound anywhere near as nice in the top end (but are super cheap and worth what we paid for them). Adding a second amp to make it an 'active' solution would just make it heavier for discernible gain in sound quality at the SPL these deliver IMO.

Designed to be very light and sound great, like all the BF stuff is. Active wouldn't have added anything to that goal I don't think. You pay the premium for the ease of moving them you see.

Edited October 12, 2016 by 51m0n

[stevie]

[quote name='deksawyer' timestamp='1476275699' post='3152896']
What's your opinion on active versus powered?
[/quote]

If you already have a power amp in-cab, you are throwing away a lot of the benefits of digital technology and DSP by not using an internal active crossover. The HF power amp section doesn't have to be as powerful as the main one - so the weight penalty isn't huge. An electronic crossover allows you to time-align the drivers accurately and use steeper slopes than you would otherwise use. Plus, you can then tailor your limiting so that it acts independently on each individual driver, which helps with reliability.

The downside is that there is an extra cost involved. Technically, it is a superior solution, which is why all the top-end active cabs use this approach - and even some cheapo ones like the Alto TX12, which cost about £150 each.

I'm a great fan of passive speakers personally. But that's a different kettle of fish and they do have to be done properly.

Edited October 12, 2016 by stevie

[pete.young]

Some great information here. The Alto TX range seems to offer a lot of cool technology for not very much money, at the other end of the scale.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1476271030' post='3152841']
Yes and no, the DSP is heavily targeted to the cab, and it isn't just eq, there is also some soft limiting and compression algorithms in there as you get near to what the cabs max delivery is if I understand it correctly.
[/quote]
But so does pretty much does every other active cab with DSP on the market... and they don't have the 4 settings - they tend to have a low or deep setting at most - and again, you can do a more controlled job from the desk anyway. You would hope the soft limiting and compression algorithms are present on every setting as a given, as protection for the speakers.

I get the low setting - if you want to utilise the cab as a subwoofer... but as for the others... as of yet, I'm not sold on their necessity.

Edited October 12, 2016 by EBS_freak

[51m0n]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1476285510' post='3153023']
But so does pretty much does every other active cab with DSP on the market... and they don't have the 4 settings - they tend to have a low or deep setting at most - and again, you can do a more controlled job from the desk anyway. You would hope the soft limiting and compression algorithms are present on every setting as a given, as protection for the speakers.

I get the low setting - if you want to utilise the cab as a subwoofer... but as for the others... as of yet, I'm not sold on their necessity.
[/quote]

Fair enough, I've used them and found different settings to work better in different rooms, saving me time at the desk, which means a faster set up for me, each to his own.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1476279139' post='3152965']
If you already have a power amp in-cab, you are throwing away a lot of the benefits of digital technology and DSP by not using an internal active crossover. The HF power amp section doesn't have to be as powerful as the main one - so the weight penalty isn't huge. An electronic crossover allows you to time-align the drivers accurately and use steeper slopes than you would otherwise use. Plus, you can then tailor your limiting so that it acts independently on each individual driver, which helps with reliability.
[/quote]

A lot of powered cabs do indeed have two amps split with various power outputs for driving the woofer(s) and the horn. I don't think the FR800 has this - it's certainly not clear by the specs, so I would figure it's potentially running some sort of passive crossover. I would certainly like to know if the limiting that is apparently in the DSP programmes is for each individual driver or the sum of the drivers - because if it's the latter, it's not as effective as it could be... as the limits for horns and cones are not equal!

DSP has really enabled cab designers to have a little play - DSP can iron out and unwanted lumps and bumps in the response of the cabs (or even add those lumps and bumps if they want to create a sound signature to their products).

EDIT - found the spec -

[url="http://www.hypex.nl/docs/PSC2400_manual.pdf"]http://www.hypex.nl/...2400_manual.pdf[/url]

It's actually 2x400W power amps... so would be interested to know how the power has been divided between the tops and the low. 400W is some serious power for a tweeter. It may have been bridged and then a passive crossover utilised?

Edited October 12, 2016 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1476286024' post='3153026']
Fair enough, I've used them and found different settings to work better in different rooms, saving me time at the desk, which means a faster set up for me, each to his own.
[/quote]
Can you explain further what they do - are they literally a pre shaped set of EQs? I could understand their worth more if say there was a setting for say, speech, where the common troublesome frequencies are reduced to prevent the chance of feedback? Would be useful if you were running off a pretty primitive analogue desk for example...?

[51m0n]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1476286175' post='3153030']

Can you explain further what they do - are they literally a pre shaped set of EQs? I could understand their worth more if say there was a setting for say, speech, where the common troublesome frequencies are reduced to prevent the chance of feedback? Would be useful if you were running off a pretty primitive analogue desk for example...?
[/quote]

I don't know the specifics I'm afraid, you would need to ask Alex....

[stingrayPete1977]

Like a lot of things having more knobs is better for people who know what they are doing, for a lot of people,myself very much included it needs to be as simple as possible, thats the only reason to use an old fashioned passive desk but even I've got the hang of the xair. Being able to add in extra matched cabs hired/purchased or borrowed is still too much of a draw to a common but high end brand for me right now but you've got to start somewhere, from small acorns and all that!

Edited October 12, 2016 by stingrayPete1977

[alexclaber]

The original intention was to biamp our PA cab but we simply got better sound and performance using bridged modules into the cab and the existing BB2 passive crossover. I guess if you've put a lot of work into making a high accuracy 2-way passive speaker with great transient and polar response, very high resistance to thermal effects (the main problem with passive crossovers), protection on the HF driver, etc then the usual benefits of active crossovers and multiple amps are nullified.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1476356362' post='3153553']
The original intention was to biamp our PA cab but we simply got better sound and performance using bridged modules into the cab and the existing BB2 passive crossover. I guess if you've put a lot of work into making a high accuracy 2-way passive speaker with great transient and polar response, very high resistance to thermal effects (the main problem with passive crossovers), protection on the HF driver, etc then the usual benefits of active crossovers and multiple amps are nullified.
[/quote]

Seems fair enough.

Can you shed some more light on the thinking behind the 4 presets and how they are utilised?

[Ghost_Bass]

Almost at the end of page 2 of this thread and not a single picture...


Two questions:

Has anybody used it with a preamp pedal as bass backline?

EDIT: messed my math. Note to self: need to increase coffee dose in the morning...

Edited October 13, 2016 by Ghost_Bass

[alexclaber]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1476356813' post='3153561']Can you shed some more light on the thinking behind the 4 presets and how they are utilised?[/quote]

We have two different presets we load depending on the use - PA and bass instrument.

PA
1. Neutral (half-space)
2. Deep (half-space)
3. Neutral (full-space)
4. Deep (full-space)

All presets are full-range (no sub required). Half-space is for one nearby boundary (wall, floor, ceiling). Full-space is for free air (i.e. stand-mount and away from walls or ceiling).

Bass instrument
1. Neutral
2. Deep
3. Vintage
4. Fat

Neutral is very accurate, Deep extends the low frequency response but is otherwise unchanged, Vintage rolls of the highs and adds an upper-bass / low-mid bump and gentle LF roll-off, Fat is a tilted response curve like on the Berg IP cabs.

Many of the FR800 cabs out there are being used as active bass cabs with outboard preamps.

[EBS_freak]

Cool - thanks for the detailed descriptions.

[Dood]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1476356362' post='3153553']
The original intention was to biamp our PA cab but we simply got better sound and performance using bridged modules into the cab and the existing BB2 passive crossover. I guess if you've put a lot of work into making a high accuracy 2-way passive speaker with great transient and polar response, very high resistance to thermal effects (the main problem with passive crossovers), protection on the HF driver, etc then the usual benefits of active crossovers and multiple amps are nullified.
[/quote]

One of the things that swayed me about the Big Twin II was how it sounds when you play full range audio through it. That's not being biased. That's listening to this passive cabinet and being genuinely excited by its sound with a range of sources. There's very few bass cabinets on the market that can do even similar. Adding DSP to tailor responses to an already amazing cabinet is a brilliant idea (or in this discussion the BB2). My experience having just reviewed Bergantino's B-Amp with integrated cabinet 'profiles' has cemented in my mind how important such a tool can be. ( The B-Amp can bypass these DSP functions to make A/Bing easy to demonstrate).

Edited October 15, 2016 by dood

[Chienmortbb]

Most people use the terms active and powered to mean the same thing. Stevie is
adding electronic crossover to the mix.

I am not going to open that can of worms but if you use an active crossover you need an amp per driver. Whereas if you use a single amp and passive crossover it can be cheaper.

In reality a good active crossover (linkwitz-Riley) with suitable amps and speakers will outperfirm a passive crossover system using the same drivers/speakers.

The original Grrenboy fearLess 12/6 was designed for bi-ampimg ( another name for active crossover). Even the "low cost " passive crossovers for Grrenboy designs are expensive but usually lower cost than an active/bi-amped system.

Active/ Bi-amped is best but a good passive crossover bests a " cheap and nasty" active system.