Jim Fleeting's New 6 string

[Jim Fleeting]

Hello again

I've been keeping my eye on this post, and the last comment worried me a little.

These aren't [i]my[/i] opinions regurgitated. Wood is really important. It's all really important. That's my opinion.

Cheers

Jim

[Kiwi]

and that, gents, I hope will be the last word on the matter? Unless of course you all have nothing better to do than argue around in circles.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Jim Fleeting' post='307620' date='Oct 16 2008, 09:21 AM']I've been keeping my eye on this post, and the last comment worried me a little.

These aren't [i]my[/i] opinions regurgitated. Wood is really important. It's all really important. That's my opinion.[/quote]

Sorry Jim, I wasn't suggesting it was your opinion, it was Carl Thompson that I was referring to. Read this interview to see where ARGH's combative yet illogical stance originates:

[url="http://www.ctbasses.com/CTinterview.html"]http://www.ctbasses.com/CTinterview.html[/url]

Alex

[Veils]

I'm with Alex there.

And I am sure Jim knows what he is doing, but that bass doesn't really do anything for me. I'm not a big fan of spalted woods and I don't like the shape.

And dude, you need to chill

[Rich]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='307686' date='Oct 16 2008, 10:15 AM']Sorry Jim, I wasn't suggesting it was your opinion, it was Carl Thompson that I was referring to. Read this interview to see where ARGH's combative yet illogical stance originates:

[url="http://www.ctbasses.com/CTinterview.html"]http://www.ctbasses.com/CTinterview.html[/url]

Alex[/quote]
Ah yes, the Carl Thompson Rainbow bass... the Sound Of Glue
[sub]Please don't rip my throat out, that was just a joke[/sub]

[thedontcarebear]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='307686' date='Oct 16 2008, 10:15 AM']Sorry Jim, I wasn't suggesting it was your opinion, it was Carl Thompson that I was referring to. Read this interview to see where ARGH's combative yet illogical stance originates:

[url="http://www.ctbasses.com/CTinterview.html"]http://www.ctbasses.com/CTinterview.html[/url]

Alex[/quote]

That interview is really hard to read, I know that is probably what he said exactly, but he doesn't exactly talk in a flowing way!

[tauzero]

[quote name='ARGH' post='306832' date='Oct 15 2008, 08:18 AM']Alex you once wrote something along the lines of "AN instrument has to sound good acoustic before it sounds good electronically"..which is pish...we are not ..I repeat NOT playing acoustic instruments,we play Electronic instruments...all the wood in the world dosent change a P/U and eq's influence which is greater than the wood...and then the scales length which over-rides the whole thing,because it influences the instrument itself..

All the acoustic properties dont mean sh*t,when its plugged in.[/quote]
If you can't hear a difference acoustically between two basses with different construction but the same pickups and electronics, you'll be hard-pressed to hear a difference when they're plugged in.

[ARGH]

First off,sorry Ive got heated again...I think 'Passionate' is the nice term.

Being pragmatic the two points are thus.

Me:- If you want to hear how scale affects tone,play A 440 on a Bosendorfer,then play the same on a pub Joanna,the difference is obvious,its not illogical,its audible,its clearer..a low B on a 36" sounds better than a 34" (yep there are others that will disagree,but Ive 34"scale low B's and 35" B's..and Ive been lucky to have played 36" B's..and I think,and I hear,they sound better,clearer,tighter,leaner*)

Alex:- Its made of wood ..HOW could it not influence the tone.

Given that...I agree..Yep I agree,but its not to the extent that some people manically believe,ok..wood,on fretless ,I concede will play a marginally higher influence in a notes sound (Keys players call it envelope) ,given as its (the string) vibrating against wood...But I still dont think that in a fretted instruments case its possible to tell the difference between fretboard woods,because the strings are touching the same (or near as damn it same) alloy frets.. I dont think if I played a Fender P that had a Maple..a Walnut...a Wenge Neck..fingerboard..whatever into a recording,you could,or nearly anyone could tell the difference between one or the other. Bodywoods ,the same...after its plugged in its the electronics and the scale,you are hearing,I dont think..I dont know,someone did an experiment.

How many Jap/Mex/Yank cheapo bass's have you heard that sound/feel awesome unplugged and the electronics have choked them,sh*tty 2 bnd eqs,crappy pots,bad jacks,...why the hell do they,clearly,sound better with an electronic upgrade...Ive an example upstairs now,thats the opposite,its a horrible build,bought cheap for parts,but came with a top whack EMG P/U with matching 18v 3 bnd eq,it sounds like a RAZOR,gnarly buzzy fretless yum...Ive sold instruments 5-6 times its ebay price,because I wont trade,its the mutts..but,back on my point, its the electronics that are governing here....not the woods,good wood is good yes? But its good on the eyes,if we were looking for ultimate wood,we would probably found the 'right' combo by now,as some luthiers,think they have,but I dont hear that,and I think a lot of it is influence of fashion (my point on tops earlier) and aesthetics (saying that Dr Daves Rotten topped Shuker looks,sounds and feels devine)..the thruneck/Bolt on argument is testament to this..Ernie Ball's militantly TIGHT as f*** bolt on neck pocket (that in some cases a slip of paper cant fit through) Vs ..I think..Sadowsky's or maybe Mike Lull's opinion of the opposite.

So whats worth changing the wood or the P/U's..sh*t P/U's kill the sound,changing the wood,wont stop that..will it??


My stand on scale...is near impossible to prove,but heres my spin...

I wonder what those muddy EB series Gibsons with a short scale,would have sounded a shitload better if being a longer 34" scale..like the Thunderbird.


Ive played many 4s and many 5s,and I can say regardless of the cost my cheapo Yammie and custom 9 with 35" scale have far far better,tighter,cleaner E strings (both use the same guages and if not string brand) than My Fender/Ibanez 4s...plugged in.

Skip (I think thats his name)from Knuckle guitars makes mad long scale instruments,30-40 odd inch scales and they sound,and Ive not heard one complaint,f***ing awesome...

I would stand by the science of scale affecting tone to a far far far greater extent than simple wood choice,because its based in pure fact,the piano example above..the 36" scale bass vs the 34" vs the 30.5" short scale,I trust my ears,and apart from the 'Its a bit weird' feeling when jumping 1 inch upward in scale the sound difference,to me,is,or feels,obvious. if you really want an acoustic example try a full scale Upright at 40+ inches..then try a smaller scale...

Im sorry If you dont agree,Im sorry If Ive got flamey,Ive had a bad week,and its no excuse,I base my opinions on fact and a few Luthiers with a LOOONG age of experience,my ears,what ive experienced (same reason I dislike GK rigs).

SO are we all agreed I am right,and you cant prove different?

* to requote the illogically linked Mr Thompson 'What IS a ****** sound?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='ARGH' post='308152' date='Oct 16 2008, 09:02 PM']good wood is good yes? But its good on the eyes,if we were looking for ultimate wood,we would probably found the 'right' combo by now,as some luthiers,think they have,but I dont hear that,and I think a lot of it is influence of fashion (my point on tops earlier) and aesthetics (saying that Dr Daves Rotten topped Shuker looks,sounds and feels devine)..the thruneck/Bolt on argument is testament to this..Ernie Ball's militantly TIGHT as f*** bolt on neck pocket (that in some cases a slip of paper cant fit through) Vs ..I think..Sadowsky's or maybe Mike Lull's opinion of the opposite[/quote]

I agree that good wood is good. That much of the fuss about woods is driven by aesthetics and fashion. That bolt-on v neck thru matters more to access than tone much of the time. I do not agree that we could find the ultimate wood because different players want different sounds.

I also agree that everyone making a fuss about tonewoods would be better served by daring to try longer scale lengths - a 36" scale is a revelation. But that doesn't make tonewoods unimportant.

I don't know how much fingerboard wood matters. I do know that neck stiffness has a huge effect upon the note envelope. Body wood self-damping, mass and resonance also has a huge effect on which overtones are absorbed and how they are either lost or returned to the string.

There is one time that wood really really makes next to no difference - when its composing the body wings of a thru-neck graphite bass with a heavy bridge and the wings are solid, not chambered. Very little energy going into those wings and then returning to the strings.

I know you like to make sweeping statements because it's both easier and suits your generally ARGH demeanour but it's not terribly useful when they're only slightly accurate!

When is good wood not good wood? When it looks nice but the bass sounds crap whatever electronics you put in it, whatever strings you put on it and however you play it. And that too is when wood really really matters!

Alex