blue Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 [quote name='mikel' timestamp='1476870029' post='3157880'] The thing is Blue your posts concentrate on you earning more for doing less. Thats the way they read. As has been pointed out, the headliners bands are almost a closed shop. These guys have been touring with the big acts for years and are well known in the industry, be it regional or national. It is beyond difficult to break into this environment unless you bring something different or unique to the party. Most of the young guys, still on the way up, will play for nothing to get into the top bunch of musicians. As a well respected musician once said "If you get into music to make money you will be disappointed, but If you get into music to make music you will always be happy" Its fine people saying go for it. Go for what, and how? Its not like you can pitch up at the DSS and apply for a job as a pro musician. Its a chicken and egg situation. Ask the pro musicians how they got where they are and most will tell you "Right place at the right time" ie luck. [/quote] I think these types of opportunities are more readily available in the States than in the UK. But , I agree it's about being in the right place at the right time and able to get up and at short notice. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 [quote name='Damonjames' timestamp='1476863928' post='3157796'] I agree with Mr Starr, I have read many of your posts blue, and you have always seemed comfortable in your slot. As I mentioned earlier, the really good slots where you are on 5 nights a week for extended periods or on a retainer are few and far between. The reality for most working musicians is that you need to cast your net far and wide to make a living. Just keep your head down and work but keep your eyes open! [/quote] I will. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1476863263' post='3157787'] To answer your question directly I don't think anyone here is paid what they are 'worth' for playing music. There's an excess of supply over demand. I put in 20 hours a week on bass and I get £50 in a good week. This is more personal though. For years you've been telling us how great your band leader is and how good your slot in the band. Has that changed or has one well paid gig gone to your head? It seems that the only way to realise your dream is to leave your current band behind. Well, there's no harm in looking but have a good look first. I know nothing about the scene in the USA but from your descriptions it doesn't look too different from here. There are very few touring bands that work five nights a week. Even huge international acts rarely sell out night after night, there's usually a tour organised for a few months with gigs mainly at weekends. 20 gigs is a big tour. The tour ends and the name band go back home or into the studio until it is time for next years show, the session musicians go and look for the next job. My wife has a saying, "don't put out your dirty underwear until you know you have clean". If you don't have an offer that gives you what you want then giving up a band where you say you are happy doesn't make an awful lot of sense. For years you have been saying how happy you are in a band where your leader organises everything and you just turn up and do a professional job of entertaining an audience. A man has a right to change but you've never struck me as a gambler. [/quote] We have a young BL that does a much better job at leading than I could. Not sure I've ever used the word "great'. I'm willing to gamble. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1476891578' post='3158189'] From what I've seen being better is not always the case. There are marginal bands out there touring at the headliner level. I think it's more about being networked, being prepared,being in the right place at the right time and exposed to these opportunities. Blue [/quote] And one of the best ways to be all that is to be called a lot..or known, so when some one knows of a position, your name is in the frame. This is a disdvantage of sticking in the same band...you have to break that circle of aquaintenances. A friend of mine asked how he could get into a function band.... and the answer started at getting known outside of his home town..and then being regarded. The playing side had to be taken care of too... but that is another story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairychris Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 (edited) I don't know people playing in function, tribute, cover, etc bands. I have no idea what the scene or the pay in the UK is. For people playing originals I know, at most, a handful of people who can make it work full-time. This doesn't includes guys who's bands headline 1500+ venues whenever they tour. Me? I'm an IT professional. My band are in the process of recording an album which'll cost us a couple of hundred quid each (so far... we haven't finished it yet). Next year we'll decide what to do with it. Am I going to make that money back, let alone rehearsal & gear costs? Probably not. There's quite a good article that covers the state of finance for underground heavy bands in the UK: [url="http://thequietus.com/articles/15536-palehorse-gig-tickets"]http://thequietus.co...rse-gig-tickets[/url] Basically it's rarely sustainable unless you have external funding... this is the same for a lot of the bigger names. Edited October 19, 2016 by hairychris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 A local venue put on cover bands but the economics of that gig meant you have to sell tickets ... Most cover bands just can't do that, but you need to be getting £1500 plus a gig to begin to make a living at it...and you need to do that every week, pretty much. The way round that is functions and tribute bands.... which is exactly what that same venue now fills its dates with. I know a few tribute band players, and they don't do much else...or have to. They get to fly around and are busy... they have a few pick-up jobs but by and large they make the bulk of their yearly salary from those bands. They do ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 value= less than the shitte on your shoe worth= a couple of pints Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikel Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1476891864' post='3158195'] I think these types of opportunities are more readily available in the States than in the UK. But , I agree it's about being in the right place at the right time and able to get up and at short notice. Blue [/quote] Yep, and there are lots and lots of musicians can do that, and as I say the young guys on the way up will do it for nothing to get a foot in the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivansc Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1476891864' post='3158195'] I think these types of opportunities are more readily available in the States than in the UK. But , I agree it's about being in the right place at the right time and able to get up and at short notice. Blue [/quote] Nashville was and probably still is full of guys who wont commit to a local gig in the fear of losing the chance at a "road gig" if one comes along. They are generally to be found either flipping burgers or on welfare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 (edited) [quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1476910185' post='3158479'] Nashville was and probably still is full of guys who wont commit to a local gig in the fear of losing the chance at a "road gig" if one comes along. They are generally to be found either flipping burgers or on welfare. [/quote] Never thought about that. However in the States I don't think it's all that easy getting on welfare. I think the rules vary from state to state. Blue Edited October 19, 2016 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1476912212' post='3158499'] Never thought about that. However in the States I don't think it's all that easy getting on welfare. I think the rules vary from state to state. Blue [/quote] Back in the 70's in the UK it was almost [i]de rigueur[/i] for aspirant musos to sign on at the Social (the welfare), supplement their income with infrequent part-time work and gig under assumed names to avoid prosecution for benefits fraud. Great times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted October 20, 2016 Author Share Posted October 20, 2016 (edited) Good discussion guys. Thanks In conclusion, I am just down. I've been doing this with passion since 1966. I don't want much just a little more after all these years. And I'm sure there are a few others here in the same boat. Blue Edited October 20, 2016 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damonjames Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1476928796' post='3158603'] Good discussion guys. Thanks In conclusion, I am just down. I've been doing this with passion since 1966. I don't want much just a little more after all these years. And I'm sure there are a few others here in the same boat. Blue [/quote] No one is begrudging you this Blue, it's in most of us to reach for more. You touched on it before, networking is your way out of your current "rut". That and a certain amount of luck. I once heard luck described as "when preparation meets opportunity", so are you prepared? Can you sight read? Are you a virtuoso, or can you play to a good standard? Can you use the Nashville numbers system? Can you improvise on the fly? Can you play a wide range of styles? Not trying to pontificate, I can't do MOST of the above, but this may be the difference between where you are and where you want to be. Scott from scottsbasslessons.com mentioned something that makes a lot of sense, find the busiest guys you know in your area, and book in and take some lessons, make sure they have your number, and don't knock back any offers. Try jam nights, they may be a waste, but you may find someone in a different circle looking for a bass player. One thing is for certain, if you change NOTHING, the likelihood is that NOTHING will change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1476928796' post='3158603'] Good discussion guys. Thanks In conclusion, I am just down. I've been doing this with passion since 1966. I don't want much just a little more after all these years. And I'm sure there are a few others here in the same boat. Blue [/quote] It is what drives us on...that better gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivansc Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Interesting. Once I decided I didnt really feel like I was going to achieve fame and fortune in an originals band, I started doign the same sort of gigs as Blue. Good-ish, steady money and above all regular. Came back to the UK and go tinto the country scene. Best and steadiest money I had made up until then. Sure the originals gigs paid way more once we had sold afew records, but they were expensive in terms of keeping up appearances and hiring in big gear. Overall that period was the most monety I ever made out of performing music. Typically 6-700 pounds a week pretty much all year round. In the early nineties right up to about 2003. I had a major shoulder injury in Nov of 2003 and had to switch to playing guitar for a while, so I started doing solo gigs in pubs locally either solo or as a duo with a drummer. Wow! Sleeping at home, no real travelling involved and I was still getting between 150 and 200 a night at least two nights a week. By tghat time we had an empty nest and my wife was working again. Overall a pretty nice way to wind down. And now I amuse myself with this band from the sixties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saints_(1960s_band) although the last original member retired about 4 years ago! In between times I show off at local jam nights for fun. And I am still pulling in a little money, of course. And finally got back to the stage where playing music is fun again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 My worth as a musician is the same as it is in every other aspect of my life - f*** all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted October 20, 2016 Author Share Posted October 20, 2016 (edited) [quote name='Damonjames' timestamp='1476949492' post='3158650'] No one is begrudging you this Blue, it's in most of us to reach for more. You touched on it before, networking is your way out of your current "rut". That and a certain amount of luck. I once heard luck described as "when preparation meets opportunity", so are you prepared? Can you sight read? Are you a virtuoso, or can you play to a good standard? Can you use the Nashville numbers system? Can you improvise on the fly? Can you play a wide range of styles? Not trying to pontificate, I can't do MOST of the above, but this may be the difference between where you are and where you want to be. Scott from scottsbasslessons.com mentioned something that makes a lot of sense, find the busiest guys you know in your area, and book in and take some lessons, make sure they have your number, and don't knock back any offers. Try jam nights, they may be a waste, but you may find someone in a different circle looking for a bass player. One thing is for certain, if you change NOTHING, the likelihood is that NOTHING will change. [/quote] I can't do any of those things except play a variety of styles and read charts.. I know at least 3 guys that are on tour and headlining and they can't do any of those things. These are guys I grew up with and that I'm still in touch with. I should have my pass port in a few weeks as an effort to show I'm prepared. For me it has to be to get more networking in place. There are no open jams around here, only open mics geared towards newbies which would be a waste of my time. Nobody or no insiders or people that have any juice show up at open mics.Its not like Greg Koch or Daryl Strummer are going to be seen at an open mic. Blue Edited October 20, 2016 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damonjames Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 I'm. It for a second saying that all pro guys CAN do those things. My point is, if someone NEEDED those skills, and you happened to be available, it could open up new avenues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 (edited) I think basically you need to get your ass out there, Blue. Possibly beyond the borders of the Great State of Wisconsin, even. I think there's basically two routes to finding the band of yer dreams: i) Audition for advertised vacancies ii) Become the go-to local / state-wide bass guy (with vocals) who works with everyone: turns up, does a great job, totally calm and makes life easy Neither approach is mutually exclusive but it strikes me it's better to be getting the call than placing the call. Edited October 20, 2016 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted October 20, 2016 Author Share Posted October 20, 2016 (edited) [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1476993024' post='3159127'] I think basically you need to get your ass out there, Blue. Possibly beyond the borders of the Great State of Wisconsin, even. I think there's basically two routes to finding the band of yer dreams: i) Audition for advertised vacancies ii) Become the go-to local / state-wide bass guy (with vocals) who works with everyone: turns up, does a great job, totally calm and makes life easy Neither approach is mutually exclusive but it strikes me it's better to be getting the call than placing the call. [/quote] Agreed, getting outside of the State of WI is crucial. Milwaukee is very clicky and anytime I have reached out to those circles even though my abilities are equal if not better I always been answered with a big pile of rejection. You can't just show up and expect people to accept you. I remember I did go to a jam that consisted of local heavy hitters. I even had one if their own vet me or vouge for me. A new set opened and my guy introduced me and asked if I could play a couple of tunes with s well known guitarist and harp player. The organizer said "no" and they played without s bass player. Needless to say I don't think much of that circle or the organizer. And these guys were all older than me. Blue Edited October 20, 2016 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 (edited) [quote name='blue' timestamp='1477000223' post='3159244'] And these guys were all older than me. [/quote] Is that even possible? Moving swiftly on: It sounds like you may be need to go right back to basics. Google yourself a list of every music bar, jam night, open mic, recording studio and rehearsal complex in a 250 mile radius. Then go back online, see what's shaking, invest in some snakeskin boots then go walk through some carefully selected doors looking like a slick operator with something to offer. People will stir themselves and ask 'Who [i]is[/i] that handsome man?' and you will say 'They call me Mister Blue'. Success will ensue as surely as night follows day. [color=#faebd7].[/color] Edited October 21, 2016 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1477000223' post='3159244'] Agreed, getting outside of the State of WI is crucial. Milwaukee is very clicky and anytime I have reached out to those circles even though my abilities are equal if not better I always been answered with a big pile of rejection. You can't just show up and expect people to accept you. I remember I did go to a jam that consisted of local heavy hitters. I even had one if their own vet me or vouge for me. A new set opened and my guy introduced me and asked if I could play a couple of tunes with s well known guitarist and harp player. The organizer said "no" and they played without s bass player. Needless to say I don't think much of that circle or the organizer. And these guys were all older than me. Blue [/quote] That is a very odd attitude from someone running a jam session. Normally they are crying out for any new credible player just to freshen things up a bit. A lot of band leaders use the better jam sessions as a way of finding new guys that may not have been on their radar - you never know when you might need a bass player and the two or three guys you normally ring are unavailable. Move to Texas mate, things seem to be very different there...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted October 21, 2016 Author Share Posted October 21, 2016 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1477004357' post='3159272'] That is a very odd attitude from someone running a jam session. Normally they are crying out for any new credible player just to freshen things up a bit. A lot of band leaders use the better jam sessions as a way of finding new guys that may not have been on their radar - you never know when you might need a bass player and the two or three guys you normally ring are unavailable. Move to Texas mate, things seem to be very different there...! [/quote] Texas might not be bad musically, politically it might be rough for me. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstuk Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SisterAbdullahX Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Wouldn't this question have been more successfully answered on TalkBass, being that it's an American forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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