Gigging without a PA

[molan]

I've been 'debating' with another bassist on the merits of using a PA for all gigs.

The conversation started because he believes that the answer to a decent bass tone, in any venue regardless of size or room acoustics, is a monster Ampeg valve head and a huge speaker stack.

His reasoning was that many venues he plays at don't have a decent PA so it's better to just have a massive rig and jack it up really loud.

From what I can make out his guitarist does the same thing and drums are just 'acoustic'.

He said his band never use a PA but I'm assuming his singer doesn't try to just shout over the lot of them without some sort PA support

This all sounds wrong to me on so many levels. With decent modern PA being available at OK prices I just can't understand why anyone would want it have so little control over what their audience is hearing?

Of course their are venues with poor house sound systems but it wouldn't take a lot to build a small system to complement what you might be presented with or to just use as a standalone setup.

I've played the odd venue where use of the house system was compulsory but it was always of a decent standard.

I have this horrible vision of his band with a bass that is crushing people at the back of the room, a guitar shredding people's faces up front, drums that sound dull and thumpy at the low end combined with someone hitting a tin can with a spoon whilst the poor vocalist is desperately trying to get himself heard over the massive on-stage cacophony surrounding him. . .

[markstuk]

Hard on the singer without a PA :-)

All of the pub/club gigging bands around here use a PA (very rare to have one in the venue) - usually just for the vocals and kick/snare.. Bass levels are matched to the drummer. Vox normally a bit louder than it should be as the assumption is that the guitarists will get louder during the gig anyway. Most don't have a sound engineer, so "mixed" from the side during the performance based on feedback from trusted audience members.. First soundcheck done by people with long leads or wireless :-)

[VTypeV4]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1476874497' post='3157925']

I have this horrible vision of his band with a bass that is crushing people at the back of the room, a guitar shredding people's faces up front, drums that sound dull and thumpy at the low end combined with someone hitting a tin can with a spoon whilst the poor vocalist is desperately trying to get himself heard over the massive on-stage cacophony surrounding him. . .
[/quote]

Me too..

[Ghost_Bass]

I wouldn't play without PA, even though i have enough volume on my rig to fill any pub i play in. I want to keep my hearing for a bit more time. Me and the drummer own a PA, it'a a RCF with 2 subs and 2 tops, active. It's relatively light and easy to carry so it isn't a problem to take it to gigs. I prefer to have lower volume onstage so that everyone hears everybody clearly and we don't get tired. The PA is there to do all the hard work and make sure that the best sound possible is presented to the audience.

More that the comfort for the band i see it as a professional attitude. If we're playing live and getting paid to do it (even if it was for free, doesn't mather) we have the obligation to deliver the best musical and sound quality possible. A secon hand PA is paid after the first few gigs so it isn't a big expense but it is a big investment in the band's career and future.

[Ghost_Bass]

BTW, we plug everything to PA, including drum kit (except for snare in pubs) bass and guitars. This way we can lower the amps to match the accoustic drum on stage and leave more room for the singer to hear himself properly. The PA will balance and complement the stage sound to match the room and pump out all the dB's needed to flap trousers and lift women skirts...

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1476874823' post='3157934']
Hard on the singer without a PA :-)

All of the pub/club gigging bands around here use a PA (very rare to have one in the venue) - usually just for the vocals and kick/snare.. Bass levels are matched to the drummer. Vox normally a bit louder than it should be as the assumption is that the guitarists will get louder during the gig anyway. Most don't have a sound engineer, so "mixed" from the side during the performance based on feedback from trusted audience members.. First soundcheck done by people with long leads or wireless :-)
[/quote]

Exactly this for the pub/club bands I play with.

We've tried putting the whole band through our own PA (we have more than enough good-quality kit to do that if we wish) but frankly it's more trouble than it's worth. By the time you take into account everyone's varying need for monitoring and foldback, having each of us bring his own backline is easily the simplest option ... in which case where's the benefit in all going through the PA?

We're literally moments away from having JTUK turn up and explain where we're going wrong.

[Beer of the Bass]

I like gigging with minimal PA where the venue size suits that approach. With smaller systems it seems like you can get a better vocal sound when you're not putting instruments through it too. It needs musicians who are concious of the overall sound, but in small rooms I'd rather hear the drums and backline directly than through an underpowered PA on the edge of clipping. It would be nice to bring a powerful, high quality PA to every pub, hall or tent, but in the circles I move in we rarely have the budget or the storage space.

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1476875623' post='3157946']
Exactly this for the pub/club bands I play with.

We've tried putting the whole band through our own PA (we have more than enough good-quality kit to do that if we wish) but frankly it's more trouble than it's worth. By the time you take into account everyone's varying need for monitoring and foldback, having each of us bring his own backline is easily the simplest option ... in which case where's the benefit in all going through the PA?

We're literally moments away from having JTUK turn up and explain where we're going wrong.
[/quote]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1476875623' post='3157945']
BTW, we plug everything to PA, including drum kit (except for snare in pubs) bass and guitars. This way we can lower the amps to match the accoustic drum on stage and leave more room for the singer to hear himself properly. The PA will balance and complement the stage sound to match the room and pump out all the dB's needed to flap trousers and lift women skirts...
[/quote]

[Raymondo]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1476876616' post='3157958']
I like gigging with minimal PA where the venue size suits that approach. With smaller systems it seems like you can get a better vocal sound when you're not putting instruments through it too. It needs musicians who are concious of the overall sound, but in small rooms I'd rather hear the drums and backline directly than through an underpowered PA on the edge of clipping. It would be nice to bring a powerful, high quality PA to every pub, hall or tent, but in the circles I move in we rarely have the budget or the storage space.
[/quote]

I see that you are in Edinburgh. I used to "half" live in Edinburgh ( Friday to Monday/ Tuesday).

My favourite bar....The Barony always have fabulous bands on, on a Sunday ( Especially Bedford Falls!) all of them only ever use a vocal PA but they get a good balanced sound.

I know that it's quite a small pub but I think that the bands that play (played ?...it's been a couple of years!) there, epitomise what you are pointing out[b] "musicians who are conscious of the overall sound"[/b]

[wateroftyne]

I'm quite happy to gig with just backline if the circumstances allow it.

Quite often, bands use a bliddy big PA in pubs when there's just no need for it.

[JTUK]

Depends on the P.A and the room. If the monitors are marginal in a room for 300 plus then you can take care of the stage with a good rig, the FOH engr, if you have one, can make his adjustments. If you don't have anyone outfront, you are self mixing so you may just have to accept what you sound like on stage will have be what you sound like out front. No biggie, if you have your stage mix sorted.

I never get why people get all concerned about what goes thru the P.A if you have so little control over it...ie, no one mixing for you. Don't get started about sound check levels either :lol;

[TimR]

I wouldn't bother 'debating' with someone with so little intellect.

[rushbo]

For the Midlands based Pubs and Clubs my band play in, backline (at a sensible volume) is adequate with just vox and occasionally kick drum, through our vocal PA. We're a two Guitar R&B band, but it's the quietest group I've ever played with! That's because our drummer isn't building a shed behind us and the Guitarists have a sensible attitude to volume. Even in the nastiest rooms, we always get a decent sound because it's not crushingly loud.

[mep]

Our PA handles vocal, guitar, bass drum and if required drums overhead and my bass.

The guitarists amp is not too loud (yes really) and is manly for his monitoring and to colour the FOH sound from the PA. We al hear him through the monitor.

The drums are quite loud so I need a decent backline volume for a good stage mix. This is usually enough for the whole venue. In larger venues I might need some PA support but it's not much.

Keep it simple.

[Dan Dare]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1476879163' post='3157998']
I wouldn't bother 'debating' with someone with so little intellect.
[/quote]

+1. I assume the character concerned, with his massive Ampeg rig, is playing in an instrumental-only band. Either that or his singer has leather lungs and a stainless steel throat...

[tauzero]

Backline and vocal PA for us too. Logistically and financially it makes sense for us.

[bassbiscuits]

We tend just to put vocals, a bit of kick drum and the keyboard through the PA for most small gigs where we just use a pair of EV SX300 tops.

For bigger gigs, we add on our LEM bass bins, and get the kick drum and bass going thru them as well, which does sound much better.

We're only a three piece usually (four with our keyboard player) so we end up being governed a bit by how much we can fit into our cars, especially when you factor in stage lights etc.

[molan]

For those of you only using minimal PA - any of you using an SVT Classic with two large cabs as your bass backline?

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1476884373' post='3158088']
For those of you only using minimal PA - any of you using an SVT Classic with two large cabs as your bass backline?
[/quote]

I've always found an SVT and one fridge to be overkill, never mind two*

[size=3]*Disclaimer: I the bands I'm in rarely ROCK OUT.[/size]

[molan]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1476879163' post='3157998']
I wouldn't bother 'debating' with someone with so little intellect.
[/quote]

I must admit that I gave up the conversation after he inferred the only reason I didn't want to gig with a huge Ampeg stack was because I've had back problems in the past.

Oh, and something to do with not being to cook like Gordon Ramsay - I got a bit lost with that one 😂

Edited October 19, 2016 by molan

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1476884373' post='3158088']
For those of you only using minimal PA - any of you using an SVT Classic with two large cabs as your bass backline?
[/quote]

No, the biggest I've routinely used was a 100 watt valve head on a decent modern 2x12", with the guitarists using 1x12" combos.

[markstuk]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1476885261' post='3158110']
No, the biggest I've routinely used was a 100 watt valve head on a decent modern 2x12", with the guitarists using 1x12" combos.
[/quote]

Usually a 2x12 and RH750... Sometimes the 810 comes out to play but only to scare the guitarists :-)

[Dad3353]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1476884373' post='3158088']
For those of you only using minimal PA - any of you using an SVT Classic with two large cabs as your bass backline?
[/quote]

Does a Hiwatt DR205 and an HH 2x15 count..? Not that we play loud at all; our amps have volume pots that work.

[mikel]

Never mic anything up for a pub or club gig. We trust each other as musicians to get our prefered sound on stage. The vocalist advises on instrument balance from out front, but we have done it so often its usually spot on anyway. Guitarist sets the vocal mics from out front. Job done. Getting a good bass sound from a small PA rig, in a pub, is difficult as most dont move enough air and volume will be low. When we are lucky enough to do a big venue the sound system is in place with a proper sound guy who can usually get the sound I want out front and in the monitors. Still try to use my backline if possible.

[TimR]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1476884589' post='3158094']


I must admit that I gave up the conversation after he inferred the only reason I didn't want to gig with a huge Ampeg stack was because I've had back problems in the past.

Oh, and something to do with not being to cook like Gordon Ramsay - I got a bit lost with that one 😂
[/quote]

I just don't think he can have had much experience and is just saying what he believes and thinks he's seen.

Loud on stage volumes just bleed into all the mics and you just won't be able to hear vocals. There would be no point in micing up the drums as you'd just get bass bleed into everything.

Any band with a pair of 8x10s will probably have one of them unplugged. Or be deaf!