Gigging without a PA

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1476887326' post='3158137']
Never mic anything up for a pub or club gig. We trust each other as musicians to get our prefered sound on stage. The vocalist advises on instrument balance from out front, but we have done it so often its usually spot on anyway. Guitarist sets the vocal mics from out front. Job done. Getting a good bass sound from a small PA rig, in a pub, is difficult as most dont move enough air and volume will be low. When we are lucky enough to do a big venue the sound system is in place with a proper sound guy who can usually get the sound I want out front and in the monitors. Still try to use my backline if possible.
[/quote]

From what i'm reading here most of the bands that use a PA for vox in fact only have a pair of tops. With a couple of subs below (and if you've got a quality PA) your bass sound will be better overall and dispersed through every corner of the venue.

We have a low volume on stage sound, i can hear everybody, both guitar combos and vocal monitor and they can hear me. If i had to push my amp to fill the room (and if the guitars did the same) i would start to lose parts of the drum kit and wouldn't be able to hear the vocals (neither would the singer).

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1476892958' post='3158210']
From what i'm reading here most of the bands that use a PA for vox in fact only have a pair of tops. With a couple of subs below (and if you've got a quality PA) your bass sound will be better overall and dispersed through every corner of the venue.

We have a low volume on stage sound, i can hear everybody, both guitar combos and vocal monitor and they can hear me. If i had to push my amp to fill the room (and if the guitars did the same) i would start to lose parts of the drum kit and wouldn't be able to hear the vocals (neither would the singer).
[/quote]

We use only tops in pub-size venues. The bass through our Hiwatt and HH cab give as good as any sub, so we wouldn't benefit. Vox only, and a smidgen of bass drum in the tops (no 'bottom-end punch, just a presence, that's all...). No point in a pair of subs either; the bass will be spread just fine with just one in most venues. That's what the bass cab is [i]for[/i], in fact..!

Edited October 19, 2016 by Dad3353

[hairychris]

I've played plenty of shows with only vocals and kick drum miked. The positives are that fi you've got decent gear you can crank it up a bit and let it breathe.

Works for small venues, not so much for larger ones!

[jezzaboy]

I gig in a rock band playing pubs and clubs and we have our own pa that the singer owns. I wouldn`t be without our own pa as most pubs round here expect you to bring your own. Only the bigger places have a pa and usually have a sound guy.

We just put vocals through ours and use Marshall valve amps for the guitarists and Trace Elliott for me. The on stage volume is quite loud and the singer and lead guitarist don`t wear hearing protection and are going deaf but won`t try earplugs, the silly so and so`s.

[mikel]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1476893902' post='3158230']
We use only tops in pub-size venues. The bass through our Hiwatt and HH cab give as good as any sub, so we wouldn't benefit. Vox only, and a smidgen of bass drum in the tops (no 'bottom-end punch, just a presence, that's all...). No point in a pair of subs either; the bass will be spread just fine with just one in most venues. That's what the bass cab is [i]for[/i], in fact..!
[/quote]

/\ Exactly. Mic up everything in a pub room? Total overkill.

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1476893902' post='3158230']
We use only tops in pub-size venues. The bass through our Hiwatt and HH cab give as good as any sub, so we wouldn't benefit. Vox only, and a smidgen of bass drum in the tops (no 'bottom-end punch, just a presence, that's all...). No point in a pair of subs either; the bass will be spread just fine with just one in most venues. That's what the bass cab is [i]for[/i], in fact..!
[/quote]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1476903744' post='3158378']
/\ Exactly. Mic up everything in a pub room? Total overkill.
[/quote]

Sendind everything to the PA provides a better overall sound mix. If the bass rig has to provide enough "heft" for the entire room then certainly it will be too loud on stage and will bother every bandmate (the same applies to the rest of the instruments). I can gig with my Promethean combo if needed, it just needs to be loud enough to cut through the drum set on stage and i allways EQ out the sub-lows from my rig so that it doesn't muddy the stage sound and everybody can hear it as articulate as possible. Let the subs do all the heavy lifting with the sub-80Hz region.

"Playing 4 hours in front of a rig turned up to fill the entire room? Madness, i say!" (Sorry Mikel, had to do it )

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1476978877' post='3158967']
Sendind everything to the PA provides a better overall sound mix...
[/quote]

You're perhaps playing in larger venues than we usually do. For a concert hall, I'd entirely agree, but for a pub/club/bar, there's absolutely no need (for us...) to mic up guitar half-stacks, nor the bass. Once the PA volume is set for the singer, we all play to that level. We're not trying to deafen anyone, and in a small (ish...) room, no instrumental band would even need a PA at all. One has to reign in more than turn up in most places we play. Not the same for festivals, or open air stages, of course, but pubs..? Nah; voice only (and a touch of bass drum, sometimes...).

[mikel]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1476978877' post='3158967']
Sendind everything to the PA provides a better overall sound mix. If the bass rig has to provide enough "heft" for the entire room then certainly it will be too loud on stage and will bother every bandmate (the same applies to the rest of the instruments). I can gig with my Promethean combo if needed, it just needs to be loud enough to cut through the drum set on stage and i allways EQ out the sub-lows from my rig so that it doesn't muddy the stage sound and everybody can hear it as articulate as possible. Let the subs do all the heavy lifting with the sub-80Hz region.

"Playing 4 hours in front of a rig turned up to fill the entire room? Madness, i say!" (Sorry Mikel, had to do it )
[/quote]

Tops and subs in a pub? Way over the top. We play at a very reasonable volume, people dont want to be pinned against the wall when having a drink. We dont try to kill each other during rehearsal either, thats why we dont mic up there. I can hear clearly every instrument and the vocal monitor means I can also hear the harmonies. No problem. In small venues big PAs are just an ego thing and an over complication.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1476978877' post='3158967']




Sendind everything to the PA provides a better overall sound mix. If the bass rig has to provide enough "heft" for the entire room then certainly it will be too loud on stage and will bother every bandmate (the same applies to the rest of the instruments). I can gig with my Promethean combo if needed, it just needs to be loud enough to cut through the drum set on stage and i allways EQ out the sub-lows from my rig so that it doesn't muddy the stage sound and everybody can hear it as articulate as possible. Let the subs do all the heavy lifting with the sub-80Hz region.

"Playing 4 hours in front of a rig turned up to fill the entire room? Madness, i say!" (Sorry Mikel, had to do it )
[/quote]

I agree with this 100%

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1476980903' post='3159001']
Tops and subs in a pub? Way over the top.
[/quote]

Why? Subs give the low end frequencies that tops just can't give.
There's a difference between fidelity and volume. The latter has to be appropriate for the venue.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1476980903' post='3159001']


Tops and subs in a pub? Way over the top. We play at a very reasonable volume, people dont want to be pinned against the wall when having a drink. We dont try to kill each other during rehearsal either, thats why we dont mic up there. I can hear clearly every instrument and the vocal monitor means I can also hear the harmonies. No problem. In small venues big PAs are just an ego thing and an over complication.
[/quote]

We are playing a golf club no bigger than a large pub on new years eve, we played there months ago, might even have been last year I think, plug in pa and speakers, upload the venue from the mixer memory bank and that's it ready to start the first set, no ego and no complication, and surely turning up to the tickled trout with a Marshall stack and an Ampeg svt with an 8x10 would be more of an ego thing than using small combos even at large festivals etc?

[JoeEvans]

Does anyone gig with a single one of those 'bass unit and a pole' rigs, like the the Bose L1? They look as though they would work really well for the borderline zone between using a PA and not.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='JoeEvans' timestamp='1476985729' post='3159049']
Does anyone gig with a single one of those 'bass unit and a pole' rigs, like the the Bose L1? They look as though they would work really well for the borderline zone between using a PA and not.
[/quote]
I think they are only successful for acoustic acts. Great for portability but can't hold a candle to proper boxes.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='JoeEvans' timestamp='1476985729' post='3159049']
Does anyone gig with a single one of those 'bass unit and a pole' rigs, like the the Bose L1? They look as though they would work really well for the borderline zone between using a PA and not.
[/quote]

We do if the pub is REALLY small, I would use a 1x12, guitarist/singer use the 'Log Burner' with a vox amp simulator, anything bigger and we add a pair of RCF 735 cabs and just use the LD Maui as the stage monitor, no monitor wedges required with either setup.

I know a pub venue that uses a pair as the monitoring and FOH as the house system that the landlord mixes,badly.

Edited October 20, 2016 by stingrayPete1977

[mikel]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1476985647' post='3159047']
Why? Subs give the low end frequencies that tops just can't give.
There's a difference between fidelity and volume. The latter has to be appropriate for the venue.
[/quote]

In a pub a backline is way more than appropriate. A bass cab gives all the low end needed, and at low volume. The tops are purely for the vocals.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1476986352' post='3159057']

The tops are purely for the vocals.
[/quote]

Ours aren't, RCF 735 or 745 tops can handle the whole mix, bass, kick the lot. I was at a professional theatre watching a band yesterday, the smaller little side venue (150ish people) has the same ones as us hanging from the roof with full pro touring bands going through them, upright bass, full drum kit. I could hear the acoustic guitar strumming from my seat and the band members quiet talking voices yet the room was full of big fat plummy double bass, if he'd put an amp on stage big enough to fill the room including the articulate pieces the guitarists would need louder amps, the vocals louder wedges,then the drummer hits harder, guitarist turns up, bass now needs to come up in the mix, rinse and repeat!

This is not to say it can't work, a small vocal PA and reasonable backline with clued up users can work well, if you are in that band then I'd say you were the exception rather than the rule.

[Lozz196]

Yep, depending on size of venue, most pubs don`t need a PA for all instruments to go through. Sure you can get a better balance of sound, but you don`t need it for volume - un-miked drums are pretty much loud enough for all but the biggest pubs, so backline only needs to match those. Vox then through the PA.

In my old punk covers band we went through a phase of having everything through the PA, yes it sounded good, but the amount of gear - were still virtually packing up a month later it seemed, and carting it all about at daft o`clock in the morning was not easy.

[mikel]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1476987092' post='3159067']
Ours aren't, RCF 735 or 745 tops can handle the whole mix, bass, kick the lot. I was at a professional theatre watching a band yesterday, the smaller little side venue (150ish people) has the same ones as us hanging from the roof with full pro touring bands going through them, upright bass, full drum kit. I could hear the acoustic guitar strumming from my seat and the band members quiet talking voices yet the room was full of big fat plummy double bass, if he'd put an amp on stage big enough to fill the room including the articulate pieces the guitarists would need louder amps, the vocals louder wedges,then the drummer hits harder, guitarist turns up, bass now needs to come up in the mix, rinse and repeat!
This is

[b]not to say it can't work, a small vocal PA and reasonable backline with clued up users can work well, if you are in that band then I'd say you were the exception rather than the rule.[/b]
[/quote]

What I meant was WE only use the tops for vocals in pubs. Crystal clear cos there are no other frequencies to get in the way. Can work? It works every night for most bands that play pub gigs.Been doing it myself for 25 plus years. Drag the whole PA to a pub? We have much better things to do.

[stingrayPete1977]

The point is the RCF cabs are the whole PA, we use the same PA for small pubs as we do for a typical wedding venue including a small marquee, the PA is two cabs two small vocal monitors and the mixer, that's it, we don't really need amps at all so we've got less kit than a band with a vocal pa,guitar amp and bass amp big enough to use as the FOH.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1476989213' post='3159088']
What I meant was WE only use the tops for vocals in pubs. Crystal clear cos there are no other frequencies to get in the way. Can work? It works every night for most bands that play pub gigs.Been doing it myself for 25 plus years. Drag the whole PA to a pub? We have much better things to do.
[/quote]

25 years? Not up for a change in thinking then, grandad?

PA tech has moved on and become a lot more affordable. 2 full range cabs will do the whole band.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1476985647' post='3159047']
Why? Subs give the low end frequencies that tops just can't give.
There's a difference between fidelity and volume. The latter has to be appropriate for the venue.
[/quote]

The bass cab [i]is [/i]the sub. No need for any more in the venues we normally play. Bigger scenes have the full works, but bars..? No need, for us.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1476991415' post='3159109']
The bass cab [i]is [/i]the sub. No need for any more in the venues we normally play. Bigger scenes have the full works, but bars..? No need, for us.
[/quote]
You don't put your kick drum through the bass cab do you?

And if you are running your backline to provide all the bass front of house, it's no wonder we are all going deaf.

I just don't see why you wouldn't want to use a single 12, or maybe a 2x12 running at a moderately low volume and buy some decent PA to project it all front of house. But that's just me.

[stingrayPete1977]

Thats fine if you are a plonka dad, your low end will indeed fill the whole room from the stage area but anyone that likes to get up the dusty end is going to struggle to get those twidly bits heard at the back without a bit in the pa if it's a bigger pub.


Part of this depends what people are classing as pubs, the small ones we do easily with small combo amps and the monitors as a vocal pa, just like at a practice. On the other hand we do a few pubs that are certainly big enough to require everything in the pa.

I still struggle with the "I can't be bothered to haul the pa just for a small pub, can someone help me in with my Ampeg fridge please?" idea, I see it a lot, those bands are always too loud. The band that followed us on at a festival earlier in the year were the same, must have the 8x10 for "my sound", it was the only thing you could hear over a massive pro EV PA in a marquee, we went for a curry after two songs......

Edited October 20, 2016 by stingrayPete1977

[TimR]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1476990441' post='3159100']
The point is the RCF cabs are the whole PA, we use the same PA for small pubs as we do for a typical wedding venue including a small marquee, the PA is two cabs two small vocal monitors and the mixer, that's it, we don't really need amps at all so we've got less kit than a band with a vocal pa,guitar amp and bass amp big enough to use as the FOH.
[/quote]

How do you monitor the bass and guitar?

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1476994011' post='3159140']


How do you monitor the bass and guitar?
[/quote]

I've got a selection of bass cabs 1x10, 1x12, 2x12 (big NeoxT one like a small 4x10), and a selection of amps 300,600 and 900 watt class D. Guitarist has a similar selection of guitar amps and extension cabs but we could run the guitar through the db opera monitors (we do have a tad anyway) and the bass with the bottom took out would work fine in the monitors too unless everyone is going to contradict themselves that the bass from the FOH won't fill the room and send a bit back my way? In reality I'd always take 1x12 as a minimum with that band.

Most upright players have embraced small monitoring amps on stage or a quality wedge if it's a known pa yet the massive bass rig is still king in the tickled trout with the electric bass players, I'm sure we all know a band that would sound better if you took the big amps off them, gave them a small combo each and a nice PA system?